Trigger warning for discussions of rape, rape culture, and directly quoting trolls.
So Mike Krahulik aka “Gabe” from Penny Arcade went and posted himself a message just now. (Note to self: you will have to update that link later. Thanks, past-self!) Twitter is just not the right venue for some things. Also, you are about to witness how ridiculously rambling my writing gets when I don’t spend a day and a half editing it first. And yes, I seriously just went through and wrote a fuck-ton about a Penny Arcade news item, it’s almost like I think words matter and carry meaning.
“It’s true that we have decided to remove the Dickwolves shirt from the store. Some people are happy about this but a lot more of you are upset.”
“You” being the people reading the message, aka the fans. So not, “some of you are happy…” just SOME PEOPLE. To me, this sounds like my mom when someone jaywalks in front of her car, “I swear, some people!”
“You think we’ve caved into to pressure from a vocal minority and you’re not entirely wrong. let me at least break down why we did it though.”
So their own narrative is that they caved in to people. SOME PEOPLE made them go and do something “a lot more of you” (aka fans) are upset about. In case you were worried this little story wouldn’t have a bad guy: I THINK ONE IS COMING!
“First of all I would never remove the strip or even apologize for the joke. It’s funny and the fact that some people don’t get it, or are offended by it doesn’t change that.”
ETA: I debated waiting a until I wasn’t the combination of sleep deprived from Global Game Jam and under the effects of half a bottle of wine, since I want to do this properly, but I also don’t want to wait 9 or 10 hours to do it. In my original response to this bit, I erroneously labeled Mike with PTSD. That’s not a label he’s publicly claimed, and it’s fucked up that I did that. Hell, I recently blogged about labeling other people’s mental health, so way to go missing your own point there when it hits closer to home, Stanton. Remember when I was all, “you’re gonna fuck up at some point?” This is a point when I fucked up, and I’m very sorry. I appreciate getting called out on this – I’m sincerely not being sarcastic or begrudging when I say that – and again, I’m sorry. I’ve removed references to PTSD related to Mike and altered the text of the first line below. Hopefully this is less assholish, over-stepping language for linking the clip with Mike’s statements, which I have found and still find relevant to the larger discussion.
Something you may not know about Mike Krahulik – he actually has some feelings he can’t “choose”. (The subject comes up around the 8:00 mark.) The quote that I found extremely moving was, and still is, ”There’s things that happen in your brain, like, connections, that you just don’t have any control over.” That’s Mike, talking about his feelings surrounding drug use/abuse. His description is pretty close to how I’d describe my (rarely triggered, thankfully) PTSD. That came out in May, 2010.
So, as a reminder: This man who I dunno, might have some understanding of other people’s mental health triggers, is the man who mocked trigger warnings and said that people identifying the comic as triggering had, “decided to find [it] offensive.” Also, the full line of the header in that last link is a Mel Brooks quote, “Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die.” The score, then, is Mike’s feelings: something that happens in his brain that he cannot control. The feelings and PTSD of rape survivors: mockable, a decision rape survivors are choosing to make somehow, and held in the same category of injury as a cut finger.
“People complained about the strip and that’s fine with me, my response as always is “if you don’t like it don’t read it.” It is very easy not to log on to Penny Arcade and read our bullshit. We’ve always made offensive comics and that’s not going to change anytime soon. If jokes about violence,rape,aids,pedophilia,bestiality,drugs,cancer,homosexuality, and religion bother you then I recommend reading a different webcomic.”
This is a really tired bullshit argument, which has gone on in the comments of my blog, other blogs, random forums, etc. There is not a Sovereign Contract of Protest that requires you to speak out against every offensive thing in a definite order. There also isn’t a statute of limitations on identifying offensive content. Additionally, the Internet of yore, back when Penny Arcade started, was a lot smaller, with a much smaller demographic of people. Also, the same fans that might have laughed at something 10 years ago when they were teenagers are all older now and it’s possible that what you thought was funny in previous years isn’t something you identify as funny or acceptable now. AND, let’s say you’re a fan and you laughed at all that other stuff but hey, this IS totally the first thing they’ve ever done that you found really upsetting. Your past silence somehow prohibits you from reaching out to the creators of this site you love so much and asking them to please consider you, a very engaged fan, since they’ve crossed a line for you as a fan? That seems to be the rule Mike is trying to put forth.
Here, let me link this up for you so it makes more sense:
“It is very easy not to log on to Penny Arcade and read our bullshit.”
“PAX is a different matter though. We want PAX to be a place were everyone feels welcome and we’ve worked really hard to make that happen.”
So the web comic they built a fan base around, which grew so large it spawned its own convention…that convention welcomes everyone! But not the web comic which is the source of the convention! Or the people who created the convention, since they also run the web comic!. They’ve still got Very Important Offensive Jokes to tell about all kinds of people who aren’t, if you’ll recall, the “you” this letter is addressed to. They don’t want SOME PEOPLE on their site, which they use to organize and promote that convention where some people are toooootally welcome to come hang out. Glad we cleared that up.
“From not allowing booth babes to making sure we have panels that represent all our attendees. When I heard from a few people that the shirt would make them uncomfortable at PAX, that gave me pause. Now whether I think that’s a fair or warranted reaction doesn’t really matter.”
This whole bit: golden. When I was reading this, I was like, “wait, is he actually recognizing his privilege and acknowledging that he can’t just pass judgment on whose experiences are or aren’t deserving of respect?” Because you see, I was a very long time fan of Penny Arcade. I found it eight or nine years ago, and when I did, I spent two days mainlining reading all the previous comics and have been reading every new one as it comes out ever since. [ETA: Fixed the language referring to drug use/abuse] Yes, really. (Did I laugh at shit I might find offensive now? Possible/probable. Am I the exact same person now with the exact same worldview I had when I was 18? No, thank fuck. People learn shit, people grow up.) I would love to be able to go back to reading Penny Arcade, the way I had been for almost a decade, without feeling gross in a variety of ways that are sort of akin to re-dating an abusive partner. The prospect that this Letter From Mike to the Fans and Some People might actually turn out to be mature and respectful was really exciting, for all 20 seconds it lasted.
Also, because despite coming from a website that “everyone” isn’t welcome at, PAX events have managed to be way less gross than your average fan convention, and I can’t speak for anyone else, but I had me a good time at PAX East last year, at least for the parts when I didn’t have a suck-o migraine (not caused by anything at PAX East, just to be super ultra clear).
“These were not rants on blogs but personal mails to me from people being very reasonable.”
Two-fold hilarity:
1) I appreciate them making it clear that this wasn’t on account of some RANTS ON BLOGS. This is, much like that dude who trolled me with, “you are a harlot slut succubus who needs to mind her own business,” one of those hilarious comments that is shockingly insightful about me. “She ranted on blogs,” is totally going on my tombstone whenever one of the trolls gets around to making good on their threats to rape me until I die. (Similarly, but not really on topic: I got a comment today that just said, “bitch, be cool.” This has become my mantra, feel free to borrow it.)
2) If you’ll recall, Penny Arcade’s comic The Sixth Slave came out in August of 2010. Their responses, both in comic form as well as news posts, tweets, and trolling feminist safe spaces, were also in August, 2010. They released the Dickwolves shirt in October, 2010. Other Dickwolves merchandise followed. The messaging coming from Mike and Jerry has always been very consistent – we’re not listening to you, and if you talk to us, we’ll make fun of you and the things you tried to talk to us about. Given the way I’d seen them treat other rape survivors and their concerns, NATURALLY, I should have just sent them an email! I MEAN COME ON! Duh, obviously they were soooooo willing to listen.
To anyone “reasonable.” Guess who gets to play Judge and Jury of Whether Your Behavior is Reasonable! Good ol’ Mike. SOME PEOPLE weren’t reasonable, obviously. We were overemotional (being triggered is, after all, a choice we’re making!), we were way too sensitive (I mean come on, all they did was tell a joke about how a guy gets raped! why can’t you just laugh?), we were mu-mu-mu-mean to them when we told them we didn’t like being triggered, and that meant that nothing we said mattered.
If you’re getting the sense that somehow, the creators of Penny Arcade don’t want to listen to the part of their fan base that were offended, triggered, or otherwise strongly disagreed with their rape joke or the way they responded to fans calling them out on their rape joke? And that maybe the creators of Penny Arcade would, seriously, rather you just go be fans of something else and stop participating in their communities, either online or in person? That feeling’s coming from somewhere.
“It’s how they feel and according to them at least, removing the shirt would make them feel better about attending the show. For me that’s an easy fix to the problem. I really don’t want to have this fight and if not having it is as simple as not selling a shirt then I’ll do it. Contrary to what they might think I’m not a complete asshole.”
Right, cause a COMPLETE asshole would have left that triggering, shitty merch in the store for longer than THREE MONTHS. A COMPLETE asshole would have refused to pull the merch no matter how many game developers refuse to speak at your conferences, no matter how many event partners refused to co-brand with you, no matter how many personal friends in the video game industry you had that were telling you and your team that This Was Not Making You A Good Business Partner. You’re not an asshole in the face of the video game industry turning up the volume louder and louder letting you know that you’re being an asshole.
I am so. fucking. glad. I quit my better-paying cushy corporate job last year, sold my suits, and transitioned into making games with people. I have got nothing but (a professionally appropriate level of) love for you folks. And if you’re in the industry and disagree with me, I’m sorry because I realize that this is coming across like I’m speaking for you. So: I am not speaking for The Industry At Large. I’m just saying, it is my personal opinion that we have got some fucking awesome people in high places. (Also, if you’re in the industry and disagree with me in some way that you feel warrants discussion, I am totally into talking. My RANTING is not limited to blogs, but I’m into hearing you out. I am aware that not everyone is comfortable just throwin’ statements out there in public for all to see.)
“Now for some people removing the shirt isn’t enough. They don’t want to come to PAX or support PA because of the strip or because they think Tycho and I are perpetuating some kind of rape culture and that’s a different matter. First off it assumes a lot about us that simply isn’t true but more importantly it’s not something I can fix.”
I would like to thank the entire Feminist Internet (an amalgam of blogs and personalities that, though containing much Magical Lady Power, does not actually constitute a ‘controlling body’ and is not actually capable of censoring people, omg I do not want to EVEN get into that (again)) for teaching these guys some new vocab words. I mean, sure, they seem to be arguing against it by saying, “Yes but what are words?” The ever-popular, “This unflattering characteristic cannot be attributed to me so long as no one believes I know what that characteristic is,” followed by the, “I’m CERTAINLY not responsible for changing my behavior, since DUH, I TOTALLY don’t know what you’re talking about and so that can’t be true and I can’t be in the wrong.”
Also, and seriously I WISH I was having to stretch for rhetorical call-backs, but guess who has SOME KIND OF RAPE CULTURE. Fans? Do “you”, the fan, who is reasonable in all your expressions of love or dissatisfaction, have SOME KIND OF RAPE CULTURE? Wait! Wait! I remember! SOME PEOPLE. SOME PEOPLE, who clearly are incapable of appreciating Penny Arcade, who are unreasonable, WE HAVE SOME KIND OF RAPE CULTURE.
Also, no shit, what island of illusion did these guys move to that’s free of rape culture? Because I totally wanna lower property values by moving there.
“I’ve gotten a couple messages from people saying they are “conflicted” about coming to PAX. My response to them is: don’t come. Just don’t do it. In fact give me your name and I’ll refund your money if you already bought a ticket. I’ll even put you on a list so that if, in a moment of weakness you try to by a ticket we can cancel the order.”
Hey remember that time when you may have gotten a creeping feeling in your gut that Mike was dumping you? He was. He’s just not that into you. I mean, it was cool and all, but you just have like, feelings and stuff. And he’s gotta get some bro time in, y’know? Like, his friends don’t think it’s cool if he hangs out with you, and while he’ll still take your money and your web traffic on the side, he’s not going to make you feel good about it. He won’t hold your hand in public or anything. I mean, you keep asking him to like, listen to you and y’know, think about you like you’re a person and not a punchline. And bro, for real, rape is so fucking hilarious, so like…He’s just gotta peace on this, but it was a good time when he took your money last year and stuff.! You can keep his other merchandise you own, to remember him by.
“So there you go. It’s not a simple decision. No matter what we do we’ll have people mad at us. If you want to talk more about it we can chat at PAX.”
Yeah, I can see how this was a tough call. I mean, how DOES one manage to stay on the good side of the people who make one of the products your job indirectly depends on, while still clinging to the the privileged delusion that you never have to say sorry to anyone, not ever.
Some random shit:
1) I am not fucking American Greetings. If you mistake an outpouring of hurt, confused fans who are telling you about one of the worst things a human being can do to another human being with a C&D letter from a major corporation, then your life is very different than mine. Since the Feminist Internet is not an actual like, organization or anything, I have no real idea what kinds of messages Penny Arcade received in response to the original comic, the response comic, etc. I don’t feel comfortable saying, “NO ONE ASKED YOU TO TAKE YOUR COMIC DOWN,” because fuck, maybe someone did. It’s just really hard for me to imagine the circumstances where the decision tree of, “how should we respond to rape survivors who are talking to us about having their PTSD triggered,” leads to the way they chose to respond.
2) WHY WILL I JUST NOT STOP TALKING ABOUT RAPE. ohmygod I know right? You know who wants to never say the word, “rape” again? Me.
The thing is, while I would, genuinely, LOVE to never hear about rape again, I think there are some strikingly different approaches to the assumedly mutual sentiment of not wanting to hear about rape anymore. To me, I think that raising awareness about rape and sexual assault, making it safer for survivors to press charges, trying to perpetuate the idea that people have the power to consent over their own bodies regardless of how much your partner or person you like or very close friend or other person you trust pressures you, trying to increase legal protection and social support of rape and sexual assault survivors, educating people about the fucked up rape culture we live in and the bizarrely horrible ideas it gives us about each other and ourselves…these things will help stop rape and sexual assault from happening.
I want kids to some day be like, “people used to do what?!” when they learn about rape. In history class. I want it to be like stoning or witch burning in this country – something we don’t do any more to each other. (Yes, I realize those things happen in other countries today. No, me changing topics completely right now to talk about that instead is not a suggestion that will make it through moderation. It’s derailing, do some research.) I want this to stop being something I have in common with people.
It seems like the alternate approach to not talking about rape is to just to shout down and silence me and other rape and sexual assault survivors. And uh, have we met? That’s not going to happen.
I’m (not really) amazed at how many men just don’t want to get it and will spend hours over days trying to mansplain how the ladiez are overreacting and wrong. And then turn this into feminist vs. gamers. Uh, women are gamers, too, dudes.
Kudos to you for dealing with this bullshit and all the dudes who have come here to defend their pathetic positions. It was just a little comic, right? RIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTT. So much so that hours over days were spent explaining why no rape culture exists. Fuck this noise is right.
“And then turn this into feminist vs. gamers. Uh, women are gamers, too, dudes.”
Pro-tip: not all women are feminists of your particular belief. As everyone here is so fond of saying, you’re not a monolith, remember?
Spoken by a female gamer who considers herself a feminist, but still supports Penny Arcade’s original comic.
“Mansplain”.
You know? I really hate that word. Just because a man is trying to explain his point of view (perhaps is lack of point of view, even) it becomes “mansplain.”
Does that mean there’s a “Femsplain” too? “Mansplain” has been used a whole lot and it’s a very derogatory word, as if every man who is trying hard to make a clear and concise point is being condescending and rude/mysoginyst/what have you. Certainly, some men are those things, some men aren’t. Hand in hand with that, some women can be those things too (is there a word for woman-to-man discrimination? if not, there should be, since feminism is about equality in everything), so it stands to reason there must be a femsplain going on somewhere.
Point is: “mansplain” is a pretty dirty word, and using it must imply the “femsplaining” you’re doing yourself.
No
Mansplaining is when a man will try to explain the problems women face frequently TO a woman. It’s not only stupid, but arrogant to think he has the authority over her to explain things she deals with pretty much every day to her like she’s an idiot.
Ah, so there IS a femsplain too.
Since many of the women I know act as if they have authority over men and explain things they deal with every day, too.
Nice to know it’s a two-way street.
Your take is simply incorrect. They ARE saying they caved to a “vocal minority,” said minority being the people who emailed and told them they would prefer the Dickwolves shirts be taken down. These people are the ones they caved to, only they didn’t really cave to them. Instead, they listened and agreed to remove it so they would be more comfortable at PAX East.
Maybe it was offensive to mock trigger warnings and rape culture. As one not effected by rape, I cannot take personal offense, although I find it insensitive. But I don’t blame them for it since they aren’t one for sensitivity. When they made fun of something I had personal connection to, yes, I was offended. I just didn’t let it be the only judge of them or their comic, or believe it made them sexists and misogynists.
Mike isn’t saying that people who are offended once or for the millionth times can’t email him about it. In fact, he made it pretty clear his problem with it was how people emailed him. Some were antagonistic, pushy and rude, and that is not the way to get people to listen to your point. It only annoyed him, which I can’t blame him for seeing as he’s human.
If something in Penny Arcade offends you, you have every right to complain about it or, as Mike suggests, stop reading. But the point is that he and Jerry make offensive, disgusting, violent and inappropriate comics on purpose and that being offended at one particular thing does not equal the right to demand it be removed with an apology for something they did not intend. From the comic following the dickwolves one, it seems they have taken the offense is at the idea they are promoting rape in some form. To me, this indicates obliviousness (which I can forgive), not purporting rape culture. And no, they don’t seem willing to listen to people about why they are wrong—who does? Especially after they, their friends and their families have been threatened—yes, threatened.
And why are you angry at them for wanting PAX to be a friendly place just because the comic is not? The comic spawned the Penny Arcade company, but that doesn’t mean they have to take their personal mission from it. And this is a bad thing? Yes, they still aren’t apologizing, yes they still plan on being offensive in the comic. Because that is what the comic is about, not the company. There is no reason they cannot be morally discrete.
Also, you criticize Mike by writing that he isn’t acknowledging that he shouldn’t pass judgment others’ experiences. I’m sorry, but where did you ever get that he was? He pokes fun at things, sometimes rudely, but never have I noticed him being judgmental. I was upset with the “bat-shit crazy” comment but besides the fact that he was speaking out of frustration at the time, I don’t believe it was specifically critical of rape survivors. I am not in any way saying it wasn’t insensitive to the difficulties they go through. I am simply saying he isn’t judging them.
Honestly, your post seems to be looking for ways to take what Mike has written the wrong way. Because if you want, you can forgive them their ignorance or even email them saying you were upset with their glib reaction to the pain of rape victims. But you don’t do that. You just take what they’re saying as some form of criticism towards rape victims and people who disagree with them. And it’s not. In his letter, he does not brush off anyone’s feelings or perspectives. In fact, unlike what you were offended by with the continuing dickwolves merchandise, he seems to be listening. The way you talk about “rants on blogs” and how people are saying you are ranting…frankly, it implies you are offended they aren’t listening to YOU.
You are angry Mike is playing “Judge and Jury of Whether Your Behavior is Reasonable!” But…you are doing the same. You are condemning them for this one offensive act, as if it is the only thing that would count for them being evil. You are insisting everything they write is only more insensitive bullshit rather than their attempts at compromise or understanding, that the only reason they pulled the merchandise was so people wouldn’t pull out of PAX, because their words can’t in any way be sincere. You aren’t giving them a chance to make up for what they did. I know they haven’t apologized, but is that really the only thing they can do? You say they are assholes because they kept the merchandise, which is apparently a trigger for you, and that they should have removed it earlier. Why? Because it is a trigger for you? The world cannot be cleansed of everything that might upset anyone without the entire population and planet being destroyed. You really do have the power by just ignoring the site and not going to PAX. Because what you wrote here will not change the minds of people who don’t believe rape culture exists. It further convinces them by giving a biased, hostile post to point to when they say people are overreacting.
I agree, this post is uncharitable and hypocritical.
Some other specific criticisms:
I bet you’d hate to have your bad experiences pointed out in the way you pointed out Mike’s.
Also if you want to remove a phrase you think is offensive, actually remove it, then stick a note at the bottom, “edited to remove drug references” if you have to. Or at least spoiler tag it out.
But I know why this isn’t the best example of your work, obviously, and this makes me pause in my criticism. This is serious stuff. Serious hurt, and that’s all I’ll say about that.
You said before it seemed like they were desperate, and I think that’s exactly right. Desperate because they are being asked to change their way of working in a way that might break it, and shut down chunks of their history.
Because if it’s not the fact that they wrote it but the fact that people read it that is the problem, ie the PTSD triggers of readers, then an argument for not writing it again is an argument for taking all similar comics off the site. Because for the person who reads it, it doesn’t matter if it was written today or yesterday. So logic requires if they accept this they must trawl through and remove all such references, and things that could trigger other forms of PTSD, then altering their creative process in order to avoid them. From that very video you reference can see that Mike was willing to sacrifice his mental health for the sake of continuing what they were doing.
From that you can recognise what a serious threat it is to him, something coming in and potentially breaking their way of working, disrupting their creative flow to the point they can’t make the stuff they value anymore.
That’s something that can make people defensive.
As said above, he doesn’t recognise the concept of rape culture, you do, but the only way he is likely to come to terms with the idea is helping him get to an alternate way of working that is compatible with it. You’re probably not the person to do that.
Thank you for your responses and posts on this. My favorite part of the Mike/Gabe That’s-Enough message was, “Kara was certainly upset…” Not *I* was upset, but “it’s affected the wife.” Is he totally clueless about the amount/kind of threats women bloggers put up with *every friggin’ day*? Or do those just not matter, because the women don’t matter?
I particularly love the response PA has had to this entire issue. They have openly mocked it as it should be openly mocked. People are far too easily offended in this day in age, it really is quite hysterical if you sit down with a rational mind and think about if for a second. This day and age is ripe with unintentional comedy in the form of people like Kirbybits. Let me use your tactics to mock you: REALLY? You, a so-called “professional” in the gaming industry, are going to go out of your way to bitch and moan about a COMIC STRIP? You’re going to “rally the troops” about a COMIC STRIP? Really? They proceeded to mock you, as you and your crowd of overly sensitive cry babies should have been mocked. You got, predictably, over-sensitive about it and you did what people with any sort of sway, no matter how small, tend to do, you exerted that sway. You went out of your way to make sure that “dammit, if my feelings are going to be hurt and mocked, I’m going to land some sort of blow” and you did. They removed their shirt. Happy? You should be. You scored a major victory for overly sensitive people everywhere. Take a bow lady. I know how I’ll celebrate, I’ll get my own Team Dickwolves shirt made in celebration of you. But hey, that isn’t enough for a big asshole like me. I’m going to find a way to make sure that my personal dickwolves brand shirt is the biggest selling shirt on the internet, just to celebrate your great victory for rape survivors everywhere. I mean, it isn’t hollow or anything like that, not at all. I mean, you didn’t help any actual victims of rape. You lost your shit over the imaginary rape of a nameless imaginary person by a made up imaginary creature in an imaginary world in a totally made up three panel comic strip. Huzzah for you! Oh God, they made light of rape! Fuck me, I guess I should go yell at the Monty Python people, I know they made light of rape once! Someone should say something! For the rape victims people, for the rape victims!
Oh dear, look at me, mocking a rape victims, how utterly insensitive of me…Maybe I should make a successful web comic…no?
Now by all means Kirbybits, do what you want. You are a sovereign and free human being. You have all the power in the world to make your choices. But hey, maybe consider for a second that Mike and Jerry do as well, could you please? I mean seriously, how did they hurt you in any real way? (beyond your poor little hurt feelings) How did they hurt society? (do you honestly think they “created rapists” “enabled rape-culture” (whatever the fuck that even means) or *gasp* “triggered” someone? Just saying that last part out loud just broke my bull-shit-o-meter. So you are going to go out of your way, mostly because they openly mocked you and your group, to hurt their event and their business? How petty of you. You’re such a big person. Your crusade is so noble. I would stand up and clap for you, but it seems it would conflict with my desire to chop off both my hands before I ever did that. Sorry
.
This is a fun post. I rather enjoy mocking this whole sad affair. I love people who get their pant-suits in a bunch over imaginary things. Rapists are real, dick-wolves are not. So really, why? Team rapists? Let me pause for a quick “lol”…OK done. Trigger events? Trigger warnings? Trigga what?! Therapy really is amazing, it seems to allow people the ability to disassociate and to talk down to people who don’t buy into the program.
Anyway I’m done. George Carlin rolls over in his shallow grave when discussions like the ones in this post go down. So much P.C. victim complex garbage, hilarious and sad at the same time. Life is short, why not have a laugh or two? This motto might serve over 9000 of you all very well. Don’t bother reading or replying to any of this unless you want to talk amongst yourselves, I won’t be back to this blog.
You will be missed.
As someone who actually HAS been raped, might I just suggest that you may be overreacting just like they seem to be stating. Rape victims do not have any more rights than anyone else. If you’re actually so vulnerable that you can be ‘triggered’ (I have no idea what being triggered is other than your mind making connections to past events which is how the mind normally works and isn’t really the fault of the person or people bringing up the topic.. If you don’t see this, how can you watch the local news or even go outside into the real world without suffering severe mental trauma)… If you’re that vulnerable, you in all seriousness should see a therapist or some type of mental health professional because that’s not normal, and not a healthy way to live. This whole argument seems to be not actually about the seriousness of rape at all, it seems more about political correctness, and you seem to have misconceptions of the typical penny arcade fans or maybe even gamers themselves like they’re stereotypical violence-idolizing sexist pigs that you portray quite vigorously if I might say, considering I’ve only read 2 blog posts from you so far and I can read that message quite clearly. I’m a sensitive individual but I am just simply stating the fact that what the creators of PA wasn’t wrong, they’ve stated their opinions on the matter pretty clearly and I didn’t think it was immature or offensive of them, I thought it was simply *REAL*. I seem to get it, maybe you just don’t yet, but quit acting like you’re standing up for people like me cause you’re not.
It’s ridiculous how much it’s grown, and how downright vicious it’s gotten. Any moral high ground the objecters had, in my view, was lost when they let their outrage become basically a public stoning of Mike in the community’s open forum. Of course he’s defensive, he’s being persecuted. So much of the argument is now focused on the question of whether or not he’s an asshole–with the overwhelming sense that he is indeed since his defenders are either not very vocal for the sake of letting the argument die if they’re mature enough, or aggressively vocal if they’re not–when it should be focused on the supposed actual moral issue. They don’t realize the effect their own posts have had, are having, and will have on these two comedians, and tragically they aren’t going to see it, because that’s not the injustice they’re concerned with. Which is funny in a sad sort of way if you consider that’s the same kind of selectivity they’re accusing him of.
But hey, they could have avoided this by doing the right thing in the first place. They should have known what would happen.
They shouldn’t have gone outside dressed that way.
I see what you did there.
And what of the moral high ground of the other side? Teamrape on twitter, mocking trigger warnings, et al?
Maybe people are calling them assholes because a person who ridicules an already oppressed group based on a twisted version of their argument is being kind of an asshole. They’ve shown regret at how bad it’s become now, if they had’ve been this way about it at the start (or better yet, SAID NOTHING like they have done with countless other offended parties that’ve approached them about stuff) they wouldn’t be in the middle of this shitpile they’re in.
Regardless of what you think of them personally, this argument shouldn’t be based on personal attacks. What they’re responding to, and have been ever since the response comic, isn’t the notion that rape and the emotions of rape victims are serious matters; their concern is the implication present in so many of these complaints that they personally are becoming some sort of accomplice or ally to rape. That’s a HEAVY accusation precisely because rape IS HORRIBLE.
Now, could Mike have made some better decisions? Yeah, there were certainly some poorly thought out tweets from him, but try understand the sense that your image is being publicly stained in front of your entire community. In their fight against rape culture and rape apologists, the complainants have turned him into some kind of symbol for the other side. The implication being that he stands for all of these horrible things no one on either side approves of. That’s not a fight against rape, it’s a fight against rape as represented by Mike Krahulik. THAT is an incredibly unfortunate and actually just kind of mean tactic, as it makes his image an acceptable loss in this fight. Even if you wanted to say that maybe from a utilitarian sort of view it is overall, it certainly doesn’t feel that way for him.
Following that sensation, yeah, he took a defensive position and made some decisions that further polarized and escalated the argument. That’s regrettable, but continuing to personally attack him and call him an asshole for those choices isn’t helping. That’s damaging him further, but nothing else.
How about actually speaking out against rape culture and trying to raise awareness for the cause without the public shaming of a person? If this truly is still about the purported moral issue, then engage that, not another person. Try beating rape, not beating Mike. That’s not fair.
Rape IS horrible which is why people have tried again and again and again to call him out on what he is doing. An unwitting accomplice to rape is still an accomplice.
“but try understand the sense that your image is being publicly stained in front of your entire community.”
The only person who was ‘staining’ his image was Mike who continued to exacerbate it at every step. If he said nothing, nobody would have anything to reply to. If he said nothing right from the start, it would have been just the same as all the other complainants about Penny Arcade.
“Following that sensation, yeah, he took a defensive position and made some decisions that further polarized and escalated the argument. That’s regrettable, but continuing to personally attack him and call him an asshole for those choices isn’t helping.”
Why? He has not backed down from his position. he continues to Not Get It. Why does he deserve a break?
“That’s damaging him further, but nothing else.”
“How about actually speaking out against rape culture and trying to raise awareness for the cause without the public shaming of a person?”
BECAUSE HE IS AT THE CENTRE OF THIS ENTIRE THING. Without Mike (and Jerry) there would be no comics mocking rape survivors, no trigger warning jokes, no dickwolves shirts, no half-assed retractions, no @teamrape, no people demanding proof of a rape, no people feeling scared to attend a supposedly inclusive con, nothing. Some of it is indirect but plenty of it was done at THEIR hands supporting the whole thing.
>Point by point rant with no actual substance
>Clear sign of butthurt
tldr
You know, you have a right to your opinion. You have a right to be offended. You have a right to speak out as loudly as you will, and be heard by as many people as choose to hear you. I will absolutely stand by that principle.
But you don’t have a “right” to have anything and everything that offends, scares, or shocks you removed from existence. And while you can scream your lungs out about “rape culture”, you aren’t doing anything for people who don’t understand or accept the assumptions inherent to your statements. You don’t even seem to understand that they *are* assumptions, rather seeing them as self-evident truths (or at least, would be if the selfish dunderheads would read the appropriate blog posts and/or literature.)
People who agree with you are people who came in ready to agree with you. Anyone who opposes your point of view- and, honestly, even anyone who comes in with a halfway open mind- is just going to see demands for empathy from someone who shows virtually none for anyone who doesn’t already think the way she does.
To some of us, this is a free speech issue. Even if we sympathize with your distress, we aren’t VILLAINS because we put a higher importance on people being able to speak openly about anything from a variety of angles, even if that makes some people disengage. That we think someone shocking or offending us once doesn’t constitute a reason to ban them from the conversation as uncouth or unclean. Or even a reason to demand an apology before we let them back in. How quickly we can sink to a standard where all there’s time for is apologies.
Frankly, if you want to change people’s minds, this is absolutely, positively not going to do so. And if it’s all just venting rage and getting patted on the back for it, it’s going to be hard to ever leave that comfortable room of self-affirmation and engage the real world.
Because this IS about the real world, right?
I thought it was funny as hell.
The irony is, that there’s probably been MORE people who have now seen this comic due to this attention-seeker than if she’d have left well-alone.
Penny Arcade is hilarious, their humor is often stupid but it makes people smile and yes, even laugh out loud.
Good on ‘em.
So what you’re saying is…
That because they mention the word “rape” in the context of a canine … made entirely out of dicks… they are somehow taking a shot at all of the rape victims out there? Is this what you are really going to let it become?
They have brought in pedophilia, religion, sex, drug use, homosexuality, homophobia.
He never said that rape was an acceptable thing, but when people accused him of being a rape supporter, rather than removing the comic (Which was harmless. Admit it. No one in the past, present, or future is ever going to be raped by a dog made entirely of erect penises.) he simply rolled his eyes? And then to suggest that this is somehow going to make PAX an uncomfortable place?
Unreal.
And for the people defending him by attacking people who are opposing him, it’s just as awful. Threatening to attack someone because they are offended at something harmless is in every way, shape, and form as bad as what they are doing to Penny Arcade.
Everyone on the internet is obviously mentally impaired when it comes to logic.
“It’s just really hard for me to imagine the circumstances where the decision tree of, “how should we respond to rape survivors who are talking to us about having their PTSD triggered,” leads to the way they chose to respond.”
You seem to be assuming that they got a bunch of really calm, sad e-mails from fans peacefully expressing their opinions about the comic. Given the nature of the internet, I think it’s a lot more likely that the e-mails they got, at least in the beginning, were largely full of anger and blame. Presumably, that triggered a response from them that was along the lines of “what the fuck, but we didn’t do anything,” and consequently, they responded with sarcasm, also angrily, and defensively.
The fact is, they didn’t really do anything wrong (in the initial comic). Trigger words are a great idea, but you can’t expect to find them everywhere. That’s just not the way life works, and so sometimes you’re gonna have to come up against things that trigger unpleasant responses in you. I don’t know how therapy for rape survivors works, but if it doesn’t address that reality, it sure as hell ought to. You can’t expect everyone to walk on eggshells just because a joke about murder triggers a reaction in YOU, or a joke about child abuse triggers a reaction YOU. I could understand people getting upset if they felt that the comic was endorsing or condoning rape (but then they are also dumb, because it obviously is not), but getting upset because the comic inadvertently REMINDED you of something?
Is it just me? That seems silly.
Again, this whole argument is based on the assumption that the initial complaints Penny Arcade received were angry and not, you know, calm and thoughtful. But does anyone really believe they weren’t? I mean, come on. It’s THE INTERNET.
Well, I have to say.. congratulations for cashing in on the attention. You seem like an intelligent person and you _claim_ to be a long-time reader of PA so the only possible reason you could have for your drastic over-reaction to an obvious joke (see next paragraph) is attention-seeking… and it worked.
The joke in question, as I would hope someone has pointed out to you by now, is not a joke _about_ rape. It uses the idea of rape to highlight the dire conditions of the poor soul in the comic. If anything the comic is made more funny because of how serious rape is. The person is being tortured daily, in horrible conditions that no person should have to endure. Yet the depraved “hero” in the comic only needs to rescue 5 of them for the quest so he leaves the sixth there.
It’s probably not as funny when someone has to explain it to you but as I’ve said, I’m sure you understood it and this was all a nifty ploy to garner attention. At least it sparked some interesting debate and gave me something to do for the afternoon. Thanks, and good luck with your next desperation move.
-Josh
‘I spent two days mainlining all the previous comics’
As a recovering addict, I would appreciate you showing the same compassion re: drug culture and references therein as you do to your zealotry of choice.
Oh shit, I am really sorry. Fixing that right now – thank you for pointing that out.
I’m about 99.9% sure he was being sarcastic. But wow, you really do buy into this bullshit.
PS
I apologize if someone had a tragic experience in a supermarket and is offended by the word ‘buy.’ My mistake.
Despite pulling the shirt from the store, apparently Mike’s wearing his shirt for PAX. I’m guessing fans will to, in support.
Hey Kirbybits.
Just wanted to express my support, should have done it days ago. I can’t imagine the crap that you’ve had to deal with the past week, but you’re doing good work. You’re an amazingly strong person. 
Also – I’ll go so far to say that this entire “trigger warning” bit is just 100% hilarious.
At first, I thought it made sense because this blog (and others) are sensitive towards or perhaps havens for folks who’ve gone through those terrible ordeals.
But then I realized that if that’s the case, shouldn’t every post have that disclaimer assumed? I’m not finding any sort of scientific rationalization for warning someone when posts contain that content. In fact, I find the opposite: if we set up a situation where a post MUST have those warnings, you’re ignoring the vast amount of reality where they will not.
Doesn’t it boild down to not needing to warn people about the content of your posts?
I recall a story where I relayed a story about a nesting bird swooping down and getting tangled in passers-by hair in some sort of defense mechanism. It was funny to see the reactions, etc.
But then one person I told it to had a horrified look on their face because when they were younger they were attacked by a bird. I felt bad, of course, but then I was dismayed that somehow I was negatively looked upon because relaying this part of something I found entertaining could have such a profound effect on someone else.
I wasn’t directly trying to hurt them, and I didn’t find the attack itself humorous, just the miscommunication and futility of a bird acting defensively.
There is no “bird attack culture,” where people just generally behave a certain way regarding these circumstances. I would have never assumed to warn regarding “bird attack triggers.” But you could easily assert both towards my situation, granted it is less common but that doesn’t diminish the impact one bit (or the diminish the rape culture or triggers for that matter).
I just think the problem is not alleviated or solved by engaging it the way we are.
Much like feminism, racism, etc… it won’t be equality until being given special treatment to attain it is not required.
so long as you don’t forget that people are rape victims far, far, far more often than they are bird victims…
“I wasn’t directly trying to hurt them, and I didn’t find the attack itself humorous, just the miscommunication and futility of a bird acting defensively.”
I get that. You had an entirely different context, and your intention was not to have that impact.
If you continued interacting with this person, knowing what you know, would you make random bird attack jokes to them? Would you get them a T-Shirt of a bird attacking someone? Would you invite them over for a viewing of The Birds and not give them a heads up?
In my view, trigger warnings aren’t some compulsive police state mechanism (imposed by what military/political power?). It’s that you can talk about whatever you want, but if you know there are people out there who might get upset about it, and you value them as readers/consumers/friends/whatever, then it’s a nice thing to give a heads up. “Hey, just so you know, there are bird attacks in this post.”
I agree that life does not come with trigger warnings, and those of us who struggle with certain things have to find ways to deal with it. I also believe that it shows generosity and hospitality to make life a little easier on each other.
The joke was funny.
a: help me i’m being raped by dickwolves
b: sorry i’ve met my “save villagers from rape” quota
It’s not a rape joke, as it works like this
a: help me
b: sorry i’ve met my “save villagers” quota
The inclusion of being raped by fantastic, horrific creatures is simply dressing meant to evoke more empathy. Everyone wants to defeat dickwolves. MMORPGs just have these silly game dynamics where the hero only does so much. This is the “you’ve defeated the boss, here’s the boss again for other people” necessity of the “Multiplayer” aspect.
Then turning it into a sports team shirt parody was, again, more funny, however tasteless.
The “lets overanalyze it” inside joke there are all of the sports team rapists. Pull it down to earth a bit and you may see that having a dickwolf as a sports mascot (removed from the context of the comic) is funny all on its own.
That’s the mass appeal. Not to mention that the slang dickwolf has been around for over half a century at least, and it’s a nice turnaround for the generalized “jock culture” to have an entire team of menacing homosexuals.
I have a flaming lips hat that reads The (F)l(A)min(G) lip(S) which from a distance you’d read as The FAGS. Now you can decontextualize that and have hatred for the band, but it was a nice proud item of mine to flaunt being “called a fag” for looking and dressing the way I did back then. Shrug.
However, it isn’t too much of a stretch to see that people who subscribe to this humor might wear the shirt because “LOL IM A RAPIST.”
Social Darwinism dictates that you allow them to rather than throw hissy fits about how they’re hurting your feelings and triggering things unsensitively. They can’t win in the long run.
The bottomline here is that you’re not going to stop perpetuating the rape culture you claim exists by sniping the low hanging fruit. It gets in the way of the real issue: power culture, and only accentuates that you are helpless against it. As long as someone holds power and advantage over another, and our society and gov. supports that, they will use that power to exploit others.
Claiming PA is supporting this culture is beyond ridiculous. PA, rape jokes, etc could disappear tomorrow, that will not mean you accomplished anything towards the end goal of corruption of power.
I think rape is bad, and anything that utilizes it as a story device is thus effective to a certain degree. It still takes good storytelling to be useful, just like any other device.
So yeah, you’re just way off base that this entire farce supports “rape culture” in any way, or even has anything to do with it. Of course it isn’t sensitive towards people who are sensitive towards it. But bringing up whatever psycho-babble regarding his stance towards drugs is funny as they’ve had plenty of drug reference / “drug culture” in their comics. Whoops.
Dear “uh” you are wasting your time, because before you and hundreds of posters and even a few posts above you the share some of your same arguments and you have also expanded on them, but its too late for you.
You are a rape apologist, you fund rape culture, and you support rape in their eyes. In their eyes you have probably raped, your Father has raped and all of your family are band of foaming rapists. To wear a dickwolf shirt you are a serial-rapist or an apologist. Just like everyone else that has made logical arguments.
You have done a good job mate, but there is no rationalsing with irrational people. It’s like trying to teach arithemtic to a kitten, it won’t happen because they do not have the mental capacity to think otherwise, their world view is broken. They need professional assistance.
These people deserve equal pity and disdain.
Well, yeah, it’s all a waste of time, right?
I’m really uninterested in the effect of my opinion, I’m just providing it to allow those who like providing theirs some sort of recourse. I’d like it addressed directly, and not tangentially.
I’d like to post an explanation of my point of view and not see it responded to with tangents about safe-spaces and what the goals of blogs are.
In the end, I find the powers that outwardly censor aka, “getting a shirt removed from a shop” far more harmful than the supposed evils of rape culture.
Any culture that creates a negative force within it could be called a “______ culture.” If I were making the anti-comic argument I wouldn’t really want to focus on that concept because of how much of a gross generalization that is to the point of losing any sort of impact. You might as well be arguing against corporate capitalist culture or positing how “demons and devils are promoting satan culture.”
Words carry meaning? Words like “Bitches of Destiny”? That’s not offensive? Or I guess words only carry offensive meaning when you feel like it?
Sad.
As a name that we apply to ourselves…no, we aren’t offended by calling ourselves that.
But that’s exactly it. I was made a bitch once and it wasn’t pleasant. In fact it happened when I was being sexually assaulted, they kept stating “you’re my bitch now.”
Now you could be referring to being destiny’s bitch, or you could be claiming you’re a bitch in that WB/teen drama usage of the term (weird rape culture side-effect I guess).
But either way, I guess I’m lucky I don’t give much mind to people not intending the heaviest, most insidious usage to the words they use. I also don’t bother with finding it indicative of a subculture, I’ve got the metaculture to worry about changing, not a microcosm of it which is dictated by a loose, undefined “what my attention is on now” self-published agenda.
It is a bit disturbing to think that people out there see themselves as “destined” towards something while espousing a culture of change and reform.
“we aren’t offended by calling ourselves that.”
Ourselves.
This seems kind of like a similar situation to how black people can use the n word, but no on else can. It’s one thing to label yourself with a word used to put you down – it strips its power and, in doing so, empowers you. It is another thing for someone else to use the word in regards to you.
I think? That’s my interpretation of what’s going on, at least.
kirbybits – Thank you for having a blog that is actually open to discussion. The number of similar blogs who ban people that disagree with them, even if the arguments are calm and rational, is really disheartening =/
Got it in one – similarly, the language my GBLT friends and I use about each other, around each other, would be considered offensive if directed at us from straight people.
Thank *you* (and several other people, really) for engaging in discussion and debate without generally spiraling down into “I know you are but what am I” levels. I understand, and appreciate, that there are corners of the Internet that have way stricter comment policies than mine (or, uh, have published comment policies at all), and I think that it just depends on the goal of the given blog. For example, it’s my understanding the main goal of Shakesville is to provide a safe space for some pretty high-level feminist discourse about issues. If that’s your game, it’s really great to engage in comments there. If the topic’s new, though, it can be stressful and difficult to engage with questions.
Since I work in an industry that, clearly, is *not* a safe space for high-level feminist ideas, I figure that topics I bring up should be open for discussion and asking questions…even if that means that 90 people feel the need to say, “wait but do you not understand how the comic relates to MMOs let me explain it.” I don’t actually expect anyone to flat-out agree with me, although I do understand how that impression could be gotten; ironically as producer, most of my job is persuasively telling people what I think they should be doing. Agreement is not nearly as interesting to me as understanding…and failing even that, a basic respect to say, “I don’t understand where you’re coming from, but I hear you.”
“I don’t understand where you’re coming from, but I hear you.”
I think people on both sides of the argument have, unfortunately, failed this pretty hard, which is why we have the current situation that we do =/
I enjoy open discussion about contentious issues, I really do – it gives me a chance to learn about viewpoints that I wouldn’t have necessarily considered as a hetero cis white male. As much as people going “RAGLRAGL THEY’RE RAPE APOLOGISTS” upsets me, so too do things like Scott Kurtz making fun of trigger warnings.
So basically what I’m saying is, I’m glad that there’s at least one spot where debate between both sides can occur in a fashion that promotes actual discussion.
One thing I thought of though – do you have a similar issue with the Fruitfucker (who literally r***s fruit)? Or is it that this one contained humans that was the problem? Or is it a timeline thing – the Fruitfucker strips are older and you looked at them with a different viewpoint, and now looking at the more recent Dickwolves strip your viewpoint has changed, hence the different response?
It’s something I’ve been wondering about.
I do take some issue with sentiments that seem to suggest “both sides are just as bad.” I do not find that to be the case. To the extent that there are even “sides”, one of them would be rape survivors. That’s a pretty marginalized population, and I hope that’s something we can take as fact without me having to lay out all the ways rape survivors are shamed, humiliated, silenced, and blamed for what happened to them. No one is given more power by being raped – it’s a destructive act on the person and their perceived “value” or “ranking” within society. (Hence the knee-jerk “well what were you wearing/what were you drinking/why were you in that neighborhood/club/whatever” type of responses that are very common.)
Given that, that rape survivors are a marginalized population, it is impossible for them to be “just as bad” as those mocking them, triggering them, and dismissing their feelings, concerns, and PTSD as “oversensitive” or “overreacting.” The arbiter of what an “appropriate” level of reaction or sensitivity to rape would be, to my mind, someone who’s actually been raped. The world that most people inhabit is a world where at least you can assume that no one is going to damage your body and psyche on a whim without you being able to stop it. I realize that sounds like a ridiculous breech of the social contract, like “well of course that wouldn’t happen on my way to work/on vacation/while out with friends/hanging out with someone.” I understand it’s all *extremely* hypothetical, and I don’t blame anyone who had a hard time seeing discussions like this in any other way. It’s how life has always been and you can probably assume always will be.
For rape survivors, that social contract has already been voided. Rape introduces a level of terror and suspicion of one’s safety, I’m having a hard time trying to articulate it and I actually have experienced it. Your understanding of what people do or don’t do to each other — not on the news, not to people you don’t really know very well, but as it applies to *you* — is gone. Are the rules different? Yes, I suppose they are. Is that fair? No, but then again, neither was being raped. Much as you identify that some words can mean very offensive things or not depending on who uses them and to whom they’re applied, people joking about rape who haven’t been raped are applying the label of “this is humorous” to rape. Rape survivors may well react very strongly to that. They might be angry. They might not be the cool-as-a-cucumber logicbombs they normally are, and express their hurt rather than calmly clear their throats and say, “pardon me, but…”
I don’t think that those reactions are invalid, and I don’t think they’re “as bad” as the people telling the jokes, doing the mocking, and dismissing survivors.
Oh, and on the FF thing – in general, my answer is that since rape is sex without consent, and since fruit is not sapient and thus capable of consenting, it’s not rape. Defining rape by whether or not the rapist calls it that is dangerously incorrect, and so the FF can call himself a rapist all he wants, but he’s not raping anyone.
Specifically, there’s a strip where the FF actually assaults a woman…I can’t remember the date on the comic, but I believe it was years ago. It definitely was something that I had forgotten about, and looking at it now, I absolutely think it’s gross and is explicitly a joke where rape is hilarious. But I also have heard from survivors who haven’t had a problem with any of this, and so I don’t want to give the impression I’m Speaking For Everyone. It is possible to identify something as a rape joke without saying every single person who has been raped MUST be upset by it. (It’s like a gay person who isn’t bothered by people calling negative things, “gay.” The behavior is still homophobic, but there’s not a mandate on every gay person to be upset by it.)
I should have phrased that better – I’m not trying to invalidate the reaction that people had to the strip at all. People can’t help how the react, and with something like this that can trigger severe sub-conscious reactions it’s stupid for people to go “stop overreacting lololol.”
What I was more saying is this:
People had a very strong negative reaction to the strip, and the PA guys immediately received feedback to the effect of “you guys are rape apologists.” More reasonable reactions weren’t heard over the noise of the extreme ones.
Rather than try to understand the reaction in a reasonable fashion, people immediately reacted to this extreme negative reaction and began making fun of it – the twitter posts, the ridicule about trigger warnings, etc. They didn’t make an attempt to understand why the reaction was so strong so it created a bigger issue.
Conversely, upon seeing this reaction, a bunch of people immediately proclaimed that they were obviously rape apologists, rather than try to understand the reaction. These guys don’t know a goddamn thing about psychology or feminism – they haven’t studied it or read about it, so they don’t know what the hell these terms like “Rape Culture” and “Rape Apologism” that are being thrown at them are.
They are stubborn assholes, they’ll freely admit this, and so they reacted to criticism by lashing out with sarcasm and vitriol. A lot of people seem to have misunderstood this reaction for “not taking it seriously,” and so the argument has been propagated.
That’s what I meant. I don’t think either side is “bad” here, and I definitely don’t think that the reactions of survivors of sexual assault are at all invalid or wrong or over the top, etc. Anyone who does is a moron, plain and simple.
This is two different sides looking at each other through different viewpoints, which is creating an ability to parse the reaction of the opposing side correctly. For example, I’m pretty sure if Kurtz knew how triggers actually worked, he wouldn’t make the sarcastic twitter posts about them.
Sorry if the original post sounded like I was trying to in any way minimize or undermine your (and others’) reaction – that wasn’t my intent. I think you have every right to react as strongly as you did to the post and their handling of the situation; they definitely mishandled it. But the mishandling wasn’t because they don’t care or are rape apologists, it was because they don’t understand and so the significance of the conversation is lost on them.
As for the FF thing – interesting. That makes a lot of sense.
To articulate it better because I tend to ramble and be unclear sometimes – the very strong reaction was completely warranted. I do wish people had taken a couple days to cool off before immediately ripping PA a new one, but on the other hand when you’re that upset it’s hard to see that as a potential option.
The PA guys didn’t understand such a strong reaction and so ridiculed it as people being ridiculous, because often on the internet there are people that have these totally over the top reactions for no good reason and just do it to get attention. They’re internet assholes, so they respond to reactions like that with a similar intensity.
Hence, the shirt, mocking people, and twitter posts. They’re not mocking rape survivors, they’re mocking the reaction because they don’t understand it.
Similarly, people didn’t understand why they did that, which reinforced this idea that they are rape apologists. That’s specifically the misunderstanding I was referring to. Things going well for this, in my opinion, would have been the strong negative response, and then PA saying “sorry we upset you guys, but we don’t censor our writing blah blah blah” and then dropping the issue and NOT making the shirt and NOT making the sarcastic twitter posts, etc.
I see what you’re saying, and don’t necessarily even disagree with the logic you present for PA’s side of things. However, this:
“Hence, the shirt, mocking people, and twitter posts. They’re not mocking rape survivors, they’re mocking the reaction because they don’t understand it.”
I would suggest is actually:
“The shirt, mocking people and twitter posts are mocking rape survivors, and they don’t understand it.”
It it possible to be doing something and think you’re doing something good, but actually have it be something bad. Again – privilege; letting go of. They can keep believing people are just attacking them for some mysterious reason, that is their privilege. If they let go of that, they would see what they are actually doing. At this point, based on their conduct outside of their self-drawn Internet Circle of Jerk Safety, I don’t really care one way or the other. It’s one thing to be Mike Posting On Penny Arcade’s News Board, but Twitter is not a part of that. Twitter is part of the larger Internet “world”, and out there, Mike is the co-runner of a charity and a public event, and the stuff he’s been saying is not *remotely* appropriate for those roles. Which brings it back to my issue that PAX was being made hostile and unprofessional…glad to see *that* was unfounded.
I agree with you completely – in a perfect world, they’d listen and understand. But in reality, for a site that gets complaints about literally every single comic they do, I wish they’d managed to ignore the complaints they received on the original strip the way they ignore pretty much everyone else. I feel awful saying that, because I think the complaints people voiced about the first strip were legitimate and deserved recognition and empathy…but given how much worse things get every time PA “responds” again, I would take continued silence over actively attacking and mocking survivors.
“The shirt, mocking people and twitter posts are mocking rape survivors, and they don’t understand it.”
Ah, I see what you’re saying. I agree, this is an accurate way of saying it. And I also think Mike and Kurtz need to shut up; the only make the argument worse every time they troll people.
I think Mike views your distinction of PA/twitter the exact opposite way. On PA, he’s the official voice of the corporation. On twitter, he’s just a guy who can say whatever the hell he wants. I agree with you that this is in fact that opposite, but my guess is that’s his motivation for doing it.
It’s surprising that they didn’t just ignore the criticism, really, since that has been their normal response. I think they have no idea what they’re saying with all this stuff.
I also wish they would leave the talking to Jerry because he’s significantly better at not putting his foot in his mouth and his head up his ass.
It just makes me more sad than anything that this whole thing happened, because it has created a giant argument in the middle of a community that is supposed to be free of such things and safe for everyone. I doubt they intended to make it less safe, and if they had just left it alone they probably wouldn’t have, but this firestorm is going to have bad implications on PAX.
I have a sinking feeling that Dickwolves shirts are going to be EVERYWHERE at PAX because internet people will think they’re having fun sticking it to some uppity feminist! Yeah!
When in reality they’re being callous idiots who need to read more. I really hope this has at least started to be less of a big deal by the time PAX rolls around.
Explaining how I perceived the comic to function has nothing to do with if you understood it that way or not…
…I think it’s pretty clear that it wasn’t understood.
This is why there are the negative responses, and those claiming that this is just a traffic generating ploy.
It’s like someone didn’t get a joke and then claimed the joke was a bad/offensive/inappropriate joke.
Others have claimed that PA should have just ignored it instead of tackling it head on with their “bad opinions and PR.”
No, most people I know like their brashness and that’s why they’ve made a name for themselves in the jpeg industry.
As far as safety of opinion… safe-spaces for one opinion are simply hostile-spaces towards others. Shrug.
I know this is off the main topic, but in response to this specific comment, does it really matter if *you’re* not offended by it? Calling any women, even if it is yourself, can be considered upsetting.
You’re not a victim of male-on-male rape. You’re not a masculist. You’re not even a man. Therefore, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with you. There aren’t even any women in the comic; why is this an issue of feminist values? Moreover, somebody who has been raped before should at least be able to understand that there are major differences between male-on-male rape and male-on-female rape, both in the circumstances leading up to the rape and also the execution of the rape. If there really is such a thing as “rape culture,” then you at least need to categorize those two types of rape differently from one another, because clearly this comic isn’t promoting male-on-female rape if it is promoting any sort of rape at all (which I truly don’t believe it is.)
Failure to even understand this much further evidences that you shouldn’t be involving yourself in this issue.
The comic was a joke on a gaming website that is only offensive when taken massively out of context.
The joke was about the ways MMORPGs handle quests, not rape.
Instead of getting so worked up I suggest that you seek professional help if you feel that unresolved issues that spark up over so little.
I’m not even going to bother talking about terminology and the arguments that have all ready been made; arguments that will surely be disregarded by the supporters/active users of this site.
The author, and I’m sure most of you can agree that the argument isn’t really about the comic. I’ve been reading the comment thread here, and I’ve gotten that much.
The major problem is about the response to the criticism of the original comic; the second comic, the news post(s), and the subsequent t-shirt.
As a believer in what causes or mindsets you follow/pursue, I completely understand the anger you’d have by practically being disregarded by Gabe and Tycho. As a former avid reader of Penny Arcade, I am completely confused as to why you’re offended by being treated like everyone else that’s been upset by them in the past.
You seem to perceive them decently, but Gabe and Tycho are just two average dipshit guys, trying to do whatever they can to make a living. They are successful, yes, they are involved in projects and operations that are much bigger than they are individually, yes. That doesn’t mean that they’ve assumed the role of important leaders of the nerd world.
They’ve said how they think of themselves, they’ve also shown us how they come up with their comics, but everything I’ve read in what I’ve found of opposition to this puts these guys on some massive pedestal; a pedestal where they carefully craft masterpiece comics where every nuance conveys some deep, well-thought meaning.
As much as I like their work, and am constantly surprised by the things they manage to create, I know that they’re just two dumb asses who got lucky in life.
You’re intelligent people, don’t you know that some people are stupid; especially Gabe?
The whole thing about the t-shirt…
There would’ve been a t-shirt even if there hadn’t been opposition to the comic. Any comic that is popular tends to get a t-shirt referencing it.
I do believe part of the decision to make said t-shirt, was definitely a fuck-you to the opposition, but yet again, even if they weren’t trying to make that statement, the shirt would exist.
So now, we’ve got this crazy situation that we know is going to happen; The shirt no longer exists, but it will definitely be present at PAX, possibly along with the dickwolf survivor shirts.
Prior to this shirt being taken off the market, the team dickwolf t-shirts would’ve been worn to be funny, or just because the owner liked said shirt. Now, the shirt is a statement. Almost everybody who wears that shirt will wear it to show their stance, just as everybody who wears the survivor shirt will be doing the same thing. There is now easily noticeable dichotomy that wouldn’t have existed prior. (Well, the survivor shirt would’ve been obvious, but not everyone prior would’ve been wearing a team dickwolf shirt just to show opposition.)
This is bad for PAX, it might cause arguments/debates at the convention. I have my doubts, as I hadn’t seen people being harassed about PSP’s back in the days where PAX was a DS circlejerk; it still kind of is, though.
So in the case that there is discourse on the subject at PAX, I’m positive most will be civil, and the rest will be dealt with accordingly.
My only concern is that opposition of PA over this incident will be projected further at PAX. I’m concerned that people will actually show up to PAX and become extremely offended and upset in public and use this to further fuel the controversy.
I really hope that as this debate furthers on, both sides encourage others who would be further harmed to just not go.
If you’re not certain whether you would be uncomfortable at PAX, because getting into arguments or people opposing you in various ways would ruin your time there, it’s not even worth going; I wouldn’t even recommend living in a city at that point, as you’re bound to have your day shat on if you even step foot in a city like Seattle.
Well shit, it’s 2am; let’s ruin this post.
I feel like the majority of the opposition is just projecting onto irrelevant things, mostly because it’s way easier to do that than actually do something meaningful.
I’ve never seen a feminist website actually be positive about anything, ever. I’m sure there are some examples that would brighten my day, but none of those ever get linked or tweeted by the feminists I’ve managed to follow on the internet. (and that’s another thing, people on the internet are fucking crazy, feminists are not exempt from this.)
Keep taking those bullets, maybe they’ll stop hurting some day.
I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but they weren’t talking about rape being a good thing or even a forgivable thing. The rape by dickwolves were unwanted and it’s an ironic situation that this hero would leave the rest of the people in hell, a hell where terrible rape happens by demons made of penises, because their quest is done. Is it because they said, “rape”? I just don’t understand the gripe with the comic. It treats rape as a negative thing, and isn’t that good? Or is it better to not talk about it at all, ever?
Steven there is nothing new to add to this post. It has all already been said. By Kirbybits and others. Over and over. And over.
Please read some of the discussion that has taken place over this post and the two posts prior. This has been explained so many many times over the course of the last week. Because having to ask this shows you haven’t read a damn thing, and imho seems pretty lazy and ignorant. Do your own reading and look up why it’s bad, then come back and address what you’ve found.
Please.
It’s a shame this whole scenario.
But this feels like it was a knee jerk reaction to a word.
If you were a rape victim I’m sorry, If you’re being offended for other people, then ask them what they think of it.
But.. internet, hey guys!?
The response is valid: people saw something that offended them, and reacted.
What didn’t help was less reasonable people telling the Penny Arcade guys that they were CLEARLY rape apologists because of the comic, and Mike (and Scott Kurtz especially, with his “trigger warning” tweets) turning around and antagonizing everyone.
It also doesn’t help that this is apparently the only blog on which civil discourse can occur: every other place I’ve tried to start an honest, calm discussion about what happened (not defending or attacking either side!), I’ve either had my comments deleted or been called a rape apologist myself for not jumping on the FUCK PENNY ARCADE bandwagon.
To illustrate this with an analogy: if a soldier who had just lost their leg in an explosion came home, you would not (ever) run up to them and yell FIRE IN THE HOLE! and expect a reasonable reaction.
You would expect them to flip the fuck out.
It’s kind of the same thing, and while some people go a little overboard with trigger warnings (using them for things like “name calling,” for instance), they’re important. Mental triggers are very real, and very serious, and very Pavlovian. I’m pretty sure the OP doesn’t want to see the word r*** and suddenly be in defense mode.
‘“She ranted on blogs,” is totally going on my tombstone…’
I used to rant on the Internet a lot more often. Then I decided to move to a better country. Now I spend a lot more time outdoors, walking around.
So if you ever decide that you don’t want to rant on the internet for the rest of your life, you could consider a change of scenery. It worked for me, and for various other people.
I’m not going to argue for PA (or against it for that matter), but I want to say this -
I think you need to understand the context in which the Penny Arcade guys flipped out (and they did flip out). It wasn’t reasonable, well thought out posts and E-mails of “This is incredibly insensitive, here’s why…”, it was blog posts and E-mails that either described the issues using language and concepts that they didn’t understand, or literally made the statement that “you made a joke about rape and won’t apologize, therefore you think that rape is acceptable.”
Seriously. I saw a blog post (not saying where) that said that Penny Arcade, and any fans who didn’t agree with the author of the blog, thought that rape was okay. Which is not a logical conclusion to make and which will make people get angry at you!
The other thing is, they were approached mainly by feminists, and one thing learning about feminism recently has taught me is that there are a lot of words and concepts that most people just do not know. When guys who don’t know these terms/concepts (like Mike and Jerry) get E-mails containing them, it makes honest discussion hard, if not impossible.
If the mass response had been “this is hurtful to us, this is why,” the conversation probably would have gone better. But it wasn’t. It was “you guys are assholes who are supporting Rape Culture and here’s why” or “you guys totally crossed the line and here’s why” or “if you read that strip and laughed then you don’t care about rape victims.”
Some people, like yourself, approached it reasonably and calmly. Others didn’t. And anyone who’s read the strip for awhile should know that if you approach Mike and Jerry with anger and accusations, they’re going to troll and attack you. It’s how they’ve always dealt with people who attack them (see: Jack Thompson, Harlan Ellison, random internet assholes).
The fact that there are sites out there actively antagonizing and criticizing Penny Arcade and its fans because of this is only hurting the issue by making the writers and the fans more angry about the hate they’re getting.
Like I said, this isn’t a support or criticism of either side. I’ve studied enough psych (and had to counsel my sister through sexual assault) to know that yeah, jokes about rape can actually cause serious emotional and mental distress. But people also reacted to the strip wrong – they reacted with vitriol, and extreme anger, and said things that are patently untrue. I’m pretty damn sure that Penny Arcade does not support rape and are not rape apologists, they just responded to being attacked. It’s how they’ve always responded to being attacked – ridicule and criticize their attackers.
I really, really wish that people hadn’t made the comments they had. I really wish the E-mails and blog posts had been honest, calm posts discussing how such things were hurtful, and WHY such things were hurtful, and how it was insensitive and here’s why. They don’t know. How the fuck could they? They’ve never been in that situation and they’re not exactly part of feminist culture.
If people had started off explaining why people were reacting like they were, calmly and rationally, then this whole thing would have gone better. Instead, people attacked them and called them rape apologists (and are STILL doing it). This is not the right way to get someone to change their minds! Ever! With anything!
When someone does something you don’t like, you say “hey don’t do that for reasons x y z.” You don’t say “you are a purposefully mean hurtful intolerant fuckface.”
Everyone, on both sides, needs to calm down and have a reasoned discussion. We don’t need inflammatory posts from people calling them rape apologists and saying that they’re propagating Rape Culture. Neither do we need inflammatory posts from Gabe telling people to fuck off if they don’t like it and making fun of them for taking it too seriously. The whole situation is bloody out of control and as an Enforcer I’m getting seriously worried that it’s going to hurt the culture at PAX, which is something I desperately do not want.
I want everyone to have a rational discussion, apologize, and reach some sort of resolution. Is that so much to ask?
That sure is a lot of words about a comic on the internet.
Here is the great Dave Chapel doing one of his stand up routines I spoke about, and this DOES include rape. Its hilarious! Why because its comedy. Go an attack him you insane bunch of people. See if Dave would give you irrational maniacs the time of day.
You people intend to destroy free speech, you intend to police what someone can say? You are even trying to tell people what can be funny and what cannot be funny. Can you imagine your audacity?
There are things I do find offensive, yet I do not gather together the mob, with pitch forks, cutlasses and torches to destroy someone, because they triggered a negative emotion in me. Who the hell am I to even begin to think I can do that. Do you know who thinks that way? A Psycho-path.
I find it offensive that you few women in America think there is some massive “rape-culture”, we are all out to rape and get you, and that I am some closeted rape fiend waiting for the right moment to pounce, my son has some inherent rape gene. The fact the term “rape-culture” exists shows it stems from a mentally ill person, and you should not be blogging, you should be seeing a psychiatrist 24/7. I’m not blogging against you clearly damaged people, I have better things to do with my time.
What I’m fighting for is freedom of expression and an artists right to freely create, even if that will offend someone somewhere. It is bound to happen and will always happen.
You people want everyone in the world to be politically correct? To tip toe on egg shells day in day out? To be considerate to you? Who are you? To say this but NOT that? You want to control the actions of other people, is this what I am to understand?
No one is no longer forcing you to read material you find offensive. That is within your rights as well, but when you attempt to trample, it fills me with absolute terror that there must be speech-codes and we must give into political correcteness, because I know exactly what is next! I know very well what the next step is, some kind of police state, and I am not going to have it!
Hey everybody, it’s Amateur Irony Hour!
“I find it offensive that you few women in America think there is some massive “rape-culture”, we are all out to rape and get you, and that I am some closeted rape fiend waiting for the right moment to pounce, my son has some inherent rape gene. The fact the term “rape-culture” exists shows it stems from a mentally ill person, and you should not be blogging, you should be seeing a psychiatrist 24/7. I’m not blogging against you clearly damaged people, I have better things to do with my time.”
Followed by…
“What I’m fighting for is freedom of expression and an artists right to freely create, even if that will offend someone somewhere. It is bound to happen and will always happen.”
I see you forgot to add “Unless someone creates or expresses something that offends MY special snowflake sensibilities”.
Maybe if you actually read about the concept of rape culture instead of, oh I don’t know, immediately getting OFFENDED by it, you might actually have a clue about it. First and foremost, it’s not all about you, snowflake. Nowhere in the discussion of rape culture is any of is specifically focused on Xavi’er and his potential rape genes passed on to his offspring. Nor is the claim made that ANY men are genetically inclined to rape. That’d be evo-psych claptrap 101 you’re wanting there and that’s in an entire other building. Rape culture is exactly what it sounds like; a cultural structure that excuses and facilitates rape. It’s the “she was asking for it, dressed like that” argument. It’s the “well if she didn’t want sex, she shouldn’t have gotten drunk with/gone home with that guy” argument. It’s dumbasses making jokes about “surprise sex”. And it’s privileged little insulated fuckers responding to reader feedback by essentially saying “You think you’re offended now? Wait until we get done with you.”.
That’s what rape culture is. It’s not a conspiracy against men. It’s not the beginnings of a police state or speech codes or any of the rest of your ridiculous “First we can’t make rape jokes, then it’s the death camps!” nonsense. It’s all the shit in our culture that either gives guys the idea that they can rape and get away with it or the idea that the rape they’re committing ISN’T rape or the idea that rape really isn’t that big a deal. That’s not freedom of expression. That’s freedom from having a fucking conscience.
Thankyou MertvayaRuka, due to you, I have had to go and educate myself about what this percieved “rape-culture” was, because today is the first time I have ever encountered the term. I have had to dig deep and sink into the abyss of these social blogs and networks to fully grasp the term. My fault, my error.
I am a very literal person, so when I read the word “culture”, I interpreted it to mean a certain type of person or individuals inclined, bred or grown into thinking rape was acceptable. Somewhat like the “drug culture”.
Nowhere in my previous two posts have I said that rape was acceptable however, I have atleast that much commen sense. What I have been championing in my two previous posts in this den of illusion; was and always will freedom of speech and I am speaking against censorship that has been the message of my 2 posts. Nothing more!
However now that I understand what rape culture is, I can tell you it does not exist whole-scale, and I still find the term reprehensible do I think the term should be abolished? Surely, do I care enough to start an active blog and downcry the people who rush to use the term, not really.
I being a male have seen first hand what I suppose this bogey man “rape culture” has done to all of us. Male and female. I kind of understand where you girls are going with this thing, but there are bigger far more social maladies than simply scream “rape culture” is the go to buzz words.
I can’t believe I’m even making a third post in here, I must be coming down with the same sickness as all of you. Rape, rape is bad, but; there seems to be a bridge somewhere.
An average African american or Hispanic male who has been reported of raping someone, usually do face prosecution and jail time, so does the average white male.
The grey area seems to come when the individuals involved are either a person of stature or extremely wealthy. Kobe Bryant was accused of rape, hell I know he did it, you know he did it, but Kobe went and bought a ring for his wife and continues to make millions playing in the NBA.
This guy in the NFL Ben Rothlesberger ( I know I spelt that wrong ), he’s also accused of rape, for all accounts and purposes this dude is still free.
What separates those two men, from me should I ask? Two things really, power and money. Me being the average hard working evil schmuck, I would more than likely be arrested, tried, DNA evidence finds me guilty and I am off to some hellish prison. It was always this way, even in high school the powerful football squad or the baseball players were untouchable regardless to what ever reprehensible deed they could think of doing, where the regular population it was fair game to call us out on our actions.
Say it with me girls. Power and Money.
That isn’t quite “rape culture” that is basically how America will and always probably be when superstars or the affluently rich are looked at as a different caliber of person to you or I. Can you imagine sending a star winning quarter back to prison? Can you imagine the ramifications and damage that would cause to the league? To the young boys world wide who idolise this living super man? It simply can’t happen, as Nixon would say, it’s unthinkable.
I am not supporting it, but as long as powerful people exist they will continue to exploit others, maybe the term rape culture should be changed to “exploitation culture”. I don’t know how well that would sit with you girls however. Exploitation doesn’t sound as brutal and menacing as rape.
Then there are the priest who rape and prey on the young, who are shifted around the communities to minister. Can you imagine the shame the Pope would have to face in criminalising his teachers of the word? Should they be prosecuted? Hell yes! However they also have that fortunate veil of power blockading justice from being served upon them. I would not predicate that as “rape culture” either.
I am a male, and I have male friends, I have never heard any average thinking man say, well she shouldn’t have dressed like that, she shouldn’t have left the house like that? The men who use those words are the offenders or the defense attorneys.
We regular people are deathly afraid of prison. I’ll let you into a secret, we are deathly afraid to do or say certain things. In the work place with women around, we cannot say “Hey Suzie, nice work outfit, looking good today” Why? because we are deathly afraid of that call from HR, where we will be demonised for sexual assault or predicating rape scenarios.
When we go to the club, and women wear their revealing outfits no mans mind is thinking how can I take advantage of this woman, that is the farthest thing from normal mens minds. Only the rapists think this way. I refuse to be classed with a society where you think there are rape apologists wholesale and that we say women deserve it, because we do not.
In the midst of all of this I managed to come across this article of a fellow name Emmit Till that was beaten beyond human recognition and killed for whistling at a woman. Surely there must have been some mass histeria of “rape culture” surrounding this incident, as well as racism of course. So those two words combined can be very dangerous. What I’m trying to say this is being looked at from a skewed perspective, as no one in their right mind, dismisses or advocates rape.
Normal men such as I are deathly afraid of being called a rapist or wrung up on charges of rape. So most men in America avoid every scenario that can percievingly get us into trouble. Only someone with rape on their mind, escalates scenarios.
As I said there is a darker entity weighing more heavily over the society than to just sweep us with the “rape-culture” brush. Maybe you girls need to look into that before coming down with the “rape culture” stamp on us immediately; because we find Dave Chapels dark comedy or PA bizarro humour funny.
“Thankyou MertvayaRuka, due to you, I have had to go and educate myself about what this percieved “rape-culture” was, because today is the first time I have ever encountered the term.”
That you didn’t think to look it up given the term appears seven times in the original post and a further 41 times during this discussion BEFORE you chose to post ABOUT rape culture speaks volumes of your entitlement and general ignorance when approaching discussion in topics.
“I am speaking against censorship that has been the message of my 2 posts. Nothing more!”
Did you even read the posts you made? The ones that talk about Chapelle and how people who believe in rape culture should get professional help?
You’ve herped and derped about free speech, but you never actually explain HOW it is censorship. It’s a person posting on a blog. Remember: Gabe wasn’t even listening to the rants on blogs, so if your logic on censorship is true (it isn’t) then this still didn’t have an impact on him! What are you stances on other forms of protest, are they also censorship?
“I being a male”
Oh boy.
“have seen first hand what I suppose this bogey man “rape culture” has done to all of us.”
How has being a male helped you see this again? Has it given you some kind of MaGiCaL pOwErZ? Because I’m a guy and I don’t know how they work yet. Is it like heat vision? Oh man that would be rad.
“I kind of understand where you girls are going with this thing,”
Not just girls, kthx.
“but there are bigger far more social maladies than simply scream “rape culture” is the go to buzz words.”
I’d point out that people are capable of multi-tasking but I’m not sure if that’s relevant as this doesn’t make all that much sense.
“I can’t believe I’m even making a third post in here, I must be coming down with the same sickness as all of you.”
Nobody is forcing you to post.
“An average African american or Hispanic male who has been reported of raping someone, usually do face prosecution and jail time, so does the average white male.”
Um.
“maybe the term rape culture should be changed to “exploitation culture”. I don’t know how well that would sit with you girls however. Exploitation doesn’t sound as brutal and menacing as rape.”
It’s also missing the point of what rape culture IS. Just like your whole argument. You DID read the link, right?
“I am a male, and I have male friends, I have never heard any average thinking man say, well she shouldn’t have dressed like that, she shouldn’t have left the house like that? The men who use those words are the offenders or the defense attorneys.”
I’m thrilled that you’ve never encountered that. Sincerely. But I am equally sincere when I tell you that it DOES happen, and it’s not just guys who do it. Please get that into your head. RAPE CULTURE IS NOT JUST GUYS VERSUS GIRLS. That is narrow-minded and disrespectful the the vast number of men who have been assaulted in their lifetime.
“When we go to the club, and women wear their revealing outfits no mans mind is thinking how can I take advantage of this woman, that is the farthest thing from normal mens minds.”
What is the point of even saying this?
“Only someone with rape on their mind, escalates scenarios.”
And how did rape get on their mind what helped encourage it and help them realize it was ‘okay’? OH WAIT
“As I said there is a darker entity weighing more heavily over the society than to just sweep us with the “rape-culture” brush. Maybe you girls need to look into that before coming down with the “rape culture” stamp on us immediately; because we find Dave Chapels dark comedy or PA bizarro humour funny.”
Maybe you need to look into not being such a condescending prick.
invisiblemoosenz, you have way more patience than I do. I looked at that herping and derping up there and all I could see is “Myself and my male friends are not rapists, so the real problem is that we men live in terror of false rape accusations because we’re not Kobe Bryant and besides all of you people are insane plus I still don’t get that it’s not all about me”.
I realise that I’m fighting an unwinnable war here, basically I’m in a double bind, everyone told me to stay out of the discussion, but I didn’t listen, I forget you people are not rational.
If I’m a prick for liking Dave Chapels comedy routines about everything including rape and I find Penny Arcades strip funny well then I’m an insensitive prick. I won’t dare apologise for it, and I’d rather DIE than live in a world that is censored or specifically tailored for you, and hundred and thousand of Americans have also died for that right.
Thank God you zealots are nothing but noise, and no one will ever take your lunacy seriously.
I truly envy you and your moral superiority, that was sarcasm by the way, in truth actually heavily pity you people. Pity you because you are so tragic. I pray you damaged people seek the help you desperately need. I won’t be coming back to this area.
As long as their is free rights to speech without censorship, I will continue to enjoy my life and laugh at things I find funny, while you dodge everything in life because of your triggers.
I guess the dickwolves imagined or real did actually win over your already frail minds.
lol
You forgot “How DARE YOU make me read up on a topic that I know little about when I’m telling you all about it oh wait I mean not read it and still spew forth the same rhetoric even after it’s been pointed out multiple times now”
However now that I understand what rape culture is, I can tell you it does not exist
Well, that settles that, then. *dusts off hands*
Thanks so much–my life is forever changed. Oh, wait, no–no it isn’t.
“I know very well what the next step is, some kind of police state, and I am not going to have it!”
You remind me of this.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/8374-Critical-Miss-An-Appeal
In the interest of protecting free speech I will say I laughed at their funny joke and then bought the funny shirt also. You didn’t like it and people on the internet responded childishly and ruined your day? Cost of not being anon on the web. Just shut up about it and it will go away.
How does saying you laughed at a joke and bought a shirt protect free speech?
Having only come across this debate today, I’m having trouble differentiating the source of actual outrage for most of the discussion. It’s obvious that many of the people involved in his debate are hotly fighting for ideals not directly involved with the actual comic. Most of the PA people seem to be fighting against the idea that they support rape culture for thinking the comic is funny, and much of the other side seems to be fighting because they resent dismissive commentary about actual rape culture and triggering.
So I went and read all of the Required Reading that I wasn’t already very familiar with… and I read through some of the comments (although I’ll confess that the spiral pattern inspired me to skim)… and I thought I’d see if you’d be willing to approach some questions I’m left with.
1) The original strip could have had any horrible act in place of rape and still maintained the humor with no loss of fidelity. All the examples of rape jokes that I see in the Required Reading are patently offensive for making light of real horror and glorifying privileged abuse. I’m really not seeing that in the original strip. I don’t think if the defined torture was beatings or mutilation it would be any less horrific, and yet I don’t think we’d be seeing a backlash. Is my perception of this strip skewed by some privilege? Is it possible for people to be amused by the strip and not support rape culture?
2) What elements of PAX do you feel exemplify the traits demonstrated in Rape Culture 101? Surely there will be creepers there, and surely they will act inappropriately. The collateral effect of real world rape culture ensures that. But I’ve found convention attendees to be astoundingly negative toward those who project violence. My experiences have shown women are willing to dress in more revealing cosplay attire because they feel safer at conventions than they do on the street. What is it about PAX that is more important to destroy than to reform?
3) Murder, torture or mutilation are significant sources of PTSD, but I have never heard anyone claim jokes about killing people in MMOs was triggering. Were I to read through Rape Culture 101 and replace Rape with Murder, we would surely be defined more universally as a Murder Culture than a Rape Culture. Is the combination of male privilege in Rape Culture and the prevalence of the crime what makes this triggering more important to confront?
4) The Empire in Star Wars brutalized a galaxy and murdered entire planets worth of people. The people who wear stormtrooper armor are not exemplifying those traits or even glorifying them. T-shirts are regularly covered in villainous faces and slogans, but no one suspects that the people wearing them would support the actions on the shirt. Why would wearing a Dickwolves shirt glorify rape more than a Cruella costume would glorify animal abuse?
I’m aware that my male privilege allows me the luxury of trying to deal with this debate from a more distant vantage point… so please forgive me if I’m offensive in ways that I don’t intend. I am asking sincere questions, and I did my best to put a lot of thought into this before commenting. If I’m out of line, just let me know.
Hi Wes – I don’t think you’re out of line, and thank you so much for reading up on things a bit before asking questions. This is the kind of discussion and push-back I find incredibly productive, because talking this out with you (and others) both maybe helps give you some new perspectives or ideas, and definitely helps me make sure that I’m articulating my position well and that my position isn’t being clouded with my own privilege(s).
1) The original strip could have had any horrible act in place of rape and still maintained the humor with no loss of fidelity. All the examples of rape jokes that I see in the Required Reading are patently offensive for making light of real horror and glorifying privileged abuse. I’m really not seeing that in the original strip. I don’t think if the defined torture was beatings or mutilation it would be any less horrific, and yet I don’t think we’d be seeing a backlash. Is my perception of this strip skewed by some privilege? Is it possible for people to be amused by the strip and not support rape culture?
I think you actually articulated my point in the first line of your point – the “actual joke” of the strip had nothing to do with rape. So why is rape there? Using the subject, and specifically using the experiences of survivors, to “punch up” a joke, to get a laugh in the second panel as set-up for the third panel – I feel there’s a legitimate argument that referencing rape in such a casual, unnecessary way contributes to the larger problem of rape culture. The number of people in these comments telling me people are wrong to be upset because, “It’s imaginary!” has re-enforced my feeling that the point is a valid one, which is a circular argument that I acknowledge is a bit heavy-handed. An analogy I just thought up, and so has not been really hardened by debate: When people say that George Lucas is “raping” the Star Wars trilogy, the word is unnecessary, too. I understand that’s probably not a perfect example, but many people seem to already understand that example of casual, unnecessary use of the word (also usually intended to be funny, if not a full-on punch line) to be a problematic one.
2) What elements of PAX do you feel exemplify the traits demonstrated in Rape Culture 101? Surely there will be creepers there, and surely they will act inappropriately. The collateral effect of real world rape culture ensures that. But I’ve found convention attendees to be astoundingly negative toward those who project violence. My experiences have shown women are willing to dress in more revealing cosplay attire because they feel safer at conventions than they do on the street. What is it about PAX that is more important to destroy than to reform?
I am not trying to destroy PAX, and I’m sorry if anything I’ve said on here, or in the larger world, has seemed to be putting that idea forth. I think that any event that is trying to be inclusive of all gamers doesn’t really have any business selling a shirt that some gamers have already identified as triggering for them. I also understand that there is some difference of experience going on – for most people attending PAX, it seems ridiculous that anyone attending would be less relaxed and fun-having than they are. For me, I’ve gotten death threats, people calling my local police about me to try to “prove” I’m fabricating the fact I was raped to get attention, and many people planning to make and distribute homemade Dickwolves shirts, because by their own admission rape is hilarious and a subject they can’t bear to give up telling jokes about. These people are attending PAX too, and I think some of the reason it’s hard to see them is because they’re not attacking you. They’re attacking people who’ve already been attacked before, which while completely counter to the proclaimed spirit of PAX, does not actually prevent them from buying a ticket. I don’t want to destroy PAX, I want Mike and Jerry to act like they actually believe what they say when they claim PAX is safe for everyone.
3) Murder, torture or mutilation are significant sources of PTSD, but I have never heard anyone claim jokes about killing people in MMOs was triggering. Were I to read through Rape Culture 101 and replace Rape with Murder, we would surely be defined more universally as a Murder Culture than a Rape Culture. Is the combination of male privilege in Rape Culture and the prevalence of the crime what makes this triggering more important to confront?
The narrative around rape is different from other crimes in this society. No one looks at a soldier killed in action and says, “Well it’s his fault for wearing that outfit.” Also, I am not interested in trying to rank which issues are more important than others, I don’t think that’s a productive exercise. I will say that this is a personal issue for me that I was personally affected by, enough to speak out in a variety of ways over time. I’m not required to have already addressed a given list of topics before speaking out on this, nor is anyone else required to do so. My protest about this issue doesn’t negate or diminish protests related to violence and the role it plays in either larger society or specifically the video game industry.
4) The Empire in Star Wars brutalized a galaxy and murdered entire planets worth of people. The people who wear stormtrooper armor are not exemplifying those traits or even glorifying them. T-shirts are regularly covered in villainous faces and slogans, but no one suspects that the people wearing them would support the actions on the shirt. Why would wearing a Dickwolves shirt glorify rape more than a Cruella costume would glorify animal abuse?
Firstly, I think there is a distinction between cosplay and street clothing, as one is much closer to areas of performance and active fan creation and engagement with source material. I know enough to say I don’t know enough about cosplay’s possible problematic issues or messages to really weigh in on them. I’d like to set those aside as examples in this discussion on account of those differences, although I acknowledge that I’m only a casual observer of cosplay — if you feel that it’s still relevant, I’m open to doing some digging and finding out more in order to develop a more informed opinion.
I actually have found, and assumed, that people wearing slogans, faces, or other icons representing a concept to be supporting that concept at least tacitly. Isn’t that why companies give out free t-shirts at conventions – to raise awareness and tacit support for a brand? People wear Darth Vader t-shirts (to keep the Star Wars theme going) because, “Darth Vader is awesome!” Now, if you challenged them about whether that meant they supported the character’s actions throughout the films, they might become upset, because you’ve made the aware that they’re championing a character who is also a mass murderer. Then, as with this, you’ll probably hear, “but it’s IMAGINARY!”, an attempt to deny the very power of emotional connection and conveyance of ideas in media that led to them being a fan of Darth Vader in the first place. And if this is all a hypothetical debate, you’ll probably be be labeled a fun-killer and that person will be grumpy with you.
But when this happens and for one person it’s Totally Hypothetical Awesome Joke Fun and for the other person it’s a reminder of an extremely personal part of their identity that they didn’t choose, I think there’s room for a bit of empathy. Especially when your Totally Awesome Joke is saying, when read without the “hilarious irony” required to make it “funny”, “I am a fan of a team of rapists.” I get that it might seem super-sensitive to others for someone to Not Get The Joke, but unfortunately, rape survivors can be really bad at laughing along with jokes at their expense.
Thank you for engaging. Your attention is surely divided among a vast spread of internet resources, so I appreciate your reply.
“Using the subject, and specifically using the experiences of survivors, to “punch up” a joke, to get a laugh in the second panel as set-up for the third panel – I feel there’s a legitimate argument that referencing rape in such a casual, unnecessary way contributes to the larger problem of rape culture.”
I’m not sure I got the impression you did. If asked, I would probably guestimate that the original strip didn’t even consider real experiences at all. I’d postulate, as countless other less graceful responders have, that something horrible was chosen for horribleness. I can recognize how someone might draw the connection you did, but I also think people do see it as an interchangeable element from a list of activities to avoid. Rape is also one of the few horrors that can be repeated over and over without killing someone, so it might have been one of the only logical choices for their fill-in-the-horrible-blank.
I really regret that I’ve got this long list of offensive responses as precedent to my defense of the word… but I’m unsure I can attribute some kind of baiting to the comic.
While the etymology of words is often an exercise in gerrymandering, rape as a word does not have any direct ties to sexuality in its use. To seize or abduct by force is the root of the word, and the use of it to describe forcibly ruining a resource is more than common… “raping the land” et al. Do you feel the sexual connotation has eclipsed any rational use of the word for non-sexual implications? I certainly know I’d never use the word niggardly, regardless of etymology..
“I am not trying to destroy PAX, and I’m sorry if anything I’ve said on here, or in the larger world, has seemed to be putting that idea forth. ”
I was getting that vibe more off the other comments than yours, so I was wrong to attribute that thought process to you. With the rest of your reply to this in mind, I think you’re right to pursue direct verbiage from Mike and Jerry opposing this violence for what it is. I am sorry you’re getting victimized. I wish there was something I could do. (Oh, and for the record, I’ve never been to any PAX event. I just know and run other conventions)
“My protest about this issue doesn’t negate or diminish protests related to violence and the role it plays in either larger society or specifically the video game industry.”
That’s a very good point. Perhaps what I’m trying to say in my comment is a bit more subtle. Considering there is trauma in a variety of arenas, and considering that we may potentially trigger for an unbelievable long list of activities… is the mention of any trauma unacceptable, or are we heading into a future where humor cannot be mixed with suffering?
“I actually have found, and assumed, that people wearing slogans, faces, or other icons representing a concept to be supporting that concept at least tacitly.”
I’m not sure I see that, entirely. There are sometimes aspects of characters that are worthy of note, and an enjoyment of that aspect does not imply tacit support of other traits. One might wish they had dramatic music playing as they entered a room, or stood tall and imposing in a cape, or commanded forces to stabilize universal chaos. Those abilities might resonate with good traits rather than the converse. We all read ourselves into everything around us, which often files off the rough edges. The definition of good and evil is purely a construct of the narrative, and there is plenty of room for extrapolation. A friend once told me, “What if the Devil was actually the good guy in the story of reality. How would we know?” I’m not sure how it fits into this entirely… but I think there’s some applicability there.
With all this in mind, anyone who knows the debate and still wears a Dickwolves shirt at PAX will be a real douchebag. Most of my approach to this issue focuses on an attempt to objectively look at the initial inspiration for the confrontation. Please don’t mistake my pursuit of this goal as apologetic for the spew of misogyny you’ve had to endure.
kirbybits said:
“The original strip could have had any horrible act in place of rape and still maintained the humor with no loss of fidelity.”
(throws sufferers of other horrible acts under the bus without batting an eyelash)
Trigger warning: long drawn out internet posting marathons.
One can laugh about anything, but not with everyone.
I still cannot believe this debate is raging to this day, Penny Arcade should be free to make any offensive remark in their humor because they have an absolute right to! Anyone trying to silence someone from saying something you personally find offensive should be imprisoned or sent to a mental institution, there is no other way to say it, and that is being kind. Comedy can be crude and offensive that is the nature of comedy, it doesn’t have to be, but it can be. There have been stand up comedians joking about racism, murder, rape, theft from the 70s. Richard Pryor was an amazing comedian, so is Dave Chapel and they all joked about offensive things in their stand-up routines. Family Guy has joked about aids and cancer, and SouthPark has joked about starving impoverished Somalians. No one one in the real world likes murder, everyone is saddened to lose a family member to disease, no one in their right minds wishes people to be raped, and no one wants their person mugged or home burgularised. In the perfect world these ugly incidents would only be spoken or heard of in comedy, but unfortunately the world isn’t perfect. People are killed, murdered and victimised, people get sick. That does not give you the right! In any way shape or form to attack or attempt ostracise an author or comedian into rearranging or changing their source material to suit you! If you find it offensive, internalise it and keep it to yourself! Especially when others on the site enjoy the strip for its irreverence. This isn’t apartheid or the race wars in the 60s. The authors at Penny Arcade are NOT personally attacking you NOR are they out to damage OR TRIGGER A BAD EXPERIENCE IN YOUR LIFE! They are not beating you, stopping you from entering a restroom, or sicking dogs on you, stopping you from voting, and as I said no comedian writes a joke thinking “How can I ‘trigger’ rape or murder victims today”. They are writing their material for comedy purposes! ONLY! Some people find it funny, some people do not. Why it is that those who do not find it funny, want to stop people from doing what they want to do in life. This reminds me of the meme ” Stop liking what I don’t like.” This is ridiculous beyond proportion, I read this authors blog and I envisioned a self-entitled, egotistical, tyrannical deranged imbecile. What is the next step? Movies cannot depict rape or murder in the context of a plot? Tell me please. I’d love to hear more insane rationalisations. Why not turn your attacks to ignorant rappers who refer to women as “ho-s” and “bitches” and talk about shooting people? How far are you people willing to go? I have no patience for ignorance. I am sorry for those who have had to endure rape, or any tragedy, but your tragedy does NOT govern the world or free actions and thoughts of other people. Your tragedy does NOT make you bigger or more important than anyone else. It is YOUR pain and you must deal with it in YOUR life, do NOT bring YOUR pain into other peoples WORK! Who are also trying to live. Live and let live!
Freedom of speech isn’t freedom from criticism, snowflake, and neither is criticism censorship. Maybe you should calm the fuck down for a bit and realize that freedom of speech means EVERYBODY, not just you and the people you like and it also means other people get to say things YOU may not like. Funny how that works isn’t it?
Here via Shakesville – I’m another one who’s stopped reading PA over all of this, and will not be attending PAX, and I just wanted to thank you for your (v eloquent) posts about all of this asshattery, especially when I can’t find the words myself between the rage and incoherent shrieking.
I don’t like leaving my thoughts on discussions such as this out in public but I could not find contact details directly for Courtney.
My point is very simple. Why are you throwing this back in the face of Mike on the basis of the words he uses? As a long time reader of PA you should know that Mike is not great with words, he is good with concepts and drawing but not with prose unlike Jerry. He may not have deliberately meant to phrase it in a way that you took as snide he just wrote it and posted it.
At this point it doesn’t matter about what the issue is, we are past the issue. The thing you had a problem with has effectively been resolved, this just seems like nitpicking now.
Chris H
If Mike is not great with words, then for the good of his company, he should consider hiring a PR person. He’s a public personality, what he says and does carries meaning for a great many people.
The thing I was most upset about – the shirts being sold – isn’t quite resolved. Mike-Who-Is-Bad-With-Words is also pretty bad at Twitter, and after this, “mean ol’ rape victims made me do something I didn’t want…btw come to PAX we love everyone!” post, he told fans on Twitter he’d be wearing his Dickwolves shirt to PAX. He told a commenter that he felt good about supporting rape culture.
At essentially every single point in this thing, if Mike and Jerry would have just not said anything, the court of public opinion would have remained firmly on their side. Their insistence to just keep making sure everyone is very, very clear on how very, very little they think about rape survivors and their allies is doing them in by proving that the horrible! unfounded! accusations! that some people were making — that Mike and Jerry are behaving in a very callow manner toward a part of their fan base — aren’t actually unfounded.
If you’re upset that I’m criticizing Mike’s words that he chooses himself to say in public, then consider urging him, as a fan, to stop talking. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but a lot of people have already tried to get me to stop articulating my experience and reaction, and it hasn’t worked so far.
I do not think it would make good economic sense for a small company to hire a PR person for the 3-4 times a year maximum they would be used. Hell I work for a company with 50 staff that has a public presence and we don’t have a PR person because they would be too expensive for the amount of work they would do.
I would never encourage anyone to stop talking about the issues that have been brought up here, or to keep silent if they feel they have a need to say something on the subject. It is just that now it feels like we have gone past the point of actually discussing the issue (although in your response we have gotten slightly more on track by discussing what you think PA opinion is). Rather you seem to have gone to a stage in the debate and discussion where you are picking on the specific language that someone has used in the written form without any benefit of the facial cues and body language that better help humans understand each other.
I agree that Mike has said some things in his tweets that may offend certain members of the PA fan base. However I would state that for them this is a regular thing as they have offended and trivialised all parts of human life and belief in their strips and with their merchandise.
However you weren’t really talking about that before, you were going through his post line by line and taking apart the words he was using to describe people. I used to do this all the time for other people’s works for my history degree, however they were scholarly articles where you know each word was chosen and carefully thought about to convey the exact meaning of the argument. I don’t think that works particularly well for a short newspost and a bunch of tweets on a subject.
“Rape Culture.”
What the fuck are you on about? Stop pairing misogyny down into bites that are easier for your neo-feminist brain to digest. Sometimes mean ol’ people with less sensitivities than you, will say things that occasionally don’t sit well. Grow a thicker skin, and stop playing the victim.
Nobody likes rape, but who the fuck are you to tell anyone what they can and cannot joke about?
So confused. kirbybits is just supposed to ignore anything that the PA guys say if she doesn’t like it, but you PA fanclub folks are really, really concerned about her comments here on her own blog? Take a dose of your own medicine, friends!
Obviously the whole “Don’t come over here if you’re going to be offended” thing only works for PA. They’re allowed to be offended by the Very Serious Business of someone daring to criticize their favorite webcomic.
I’m really sick of these feminists and their misandry culture. They act as if they can do no wrong and that a joke about a wolf raping a guy will someone make it ok for a guy to go out and rape some woman?
What these bitches need is some counselling to work through their fear and anger. Instead of dealing with it they let it form into a thick callous shell that deflects any option that isn’t theirs while they lash out at people who have done no wrong to them.
Know while you have ‘trigger warnings’? Cause you haven’t made any effort to get over what happened. You have empowered your rapist by letting him have this large of an effect on your complete life.
No, they have trigger warnings because unlike you and the rest of the cowards posting here, they don’t see themselves as the be-all end-all of human fortitude. Telling someone to “get over” something you’ve never experienced and which would likely reduce you to the same kind of state you describe others as being in isn’t impressive, it’s just pathetic.
Lots of men are raped in prison or otherwise sexually abused in life, seeing as the comic shows a man being raped, surely it would be more traumatizing for them.
So why are there none making as big of a deal out of this as kirby is?
Because this didn’t actually traumatize anyone. Maybe it was offensive, sure. But you know what you do when you get offended? You move on with your life. It happens. Being offended is hardly trauma.
Oooh, the one-two punch! “What about the men who’ve been raped”, a question you likely have no actual interest in and more “I still get to say what’s traumatizing and this wasn’t traumatizing”. Lemme see if I can follow.
This is just a criticism of a webcomic. You’re not traumatized by it, just offended, so move on with your life. Get over it and find something else to do besides making a self-righteous stink about it.
But why do I get the feeling that won’t be acceptable to you?
So this person doesn’t get to decide what people are and are not traumatized by, but you get to decide what sort of questions he’s not actually interested in the answers to? Jesus.
Men being raped in prisons IS a big problem and it SHOULD NOT be ignored.
But # of men who are raped in prison is still < # of women who are raped anywhere, ever.
I guess it’s also their fault for wearing that short skirt too, huh?
So I guess we are supposed to never mention anything that could possibly have been traumatic to any person?
No jokes about murder, rape, pretty much any dark humor is not OK then? I’m not saying these things are inherently FUNNY, but humor is a really complicated thing.
I mean, there are some people out there with irrational phobias. Maybe someone was attacked by a dog and now dogs terrify them and trigger stress because they recall that experience.
Does this mean we should never joke about dogs? No, because that would be fucking silly. Just like this whole controversy is fucking silly and unnecessary. It was a joke. It was not intended to hurt anyone. And someone who was hurt by it would also apparently be hurt by the mere sight of the word ‘ rape ‘ because seriously, there was no rape shown in the comic, there was no ill intent, it was basically just the word.
The whole thing is ridiculous. But I’m sure you got a ton of blog hits out of it.
Also, as far as the response comic they made? It was sardonic because they probably were kind of mystified as to why someone would be so overly sensitive to be offended by such a dumb little joke. I think it’s understandable.
People need to stop getting offended by STUPID SHIT. Just move on. Jesus christ.
“Does this mean we should never joke about dogs? No, because that would be fucking silly.”
No, fucking silly would be if someone said they were terrified of dogs and talk about dogs really traumatized them and the response by the person talking about dogs not stopping but handing out t-shirts with photos of snarling pitbulls on them to every person in the immediate area and telling the traumatized person to fucking get over it. Which is pretty much what Gabe and Tycho did.
That’s the problem here. PA and their drooling fanboys didn’t have to take it to the t-shirt level. They could have made what’s apparently a fucking Herculean effort for them and did NOTHING instead of saying “Hey, how can we REALLY be assholes?”.
Let’s be honest here. There are people in this world who can stand shit that would have you and the rest of the internet tough guy trolls here crying for mommy inside of five seconds. And I’m pretty sure none of you would want to hear “Suck it up, you’re just overly sensitive.”.
I’ll concede that there are in fact things in the world that would offend me on a similar level, but this comic comes nowhere close.
And honestly can’t imagine any reasonable person looking at this quite decidedly non-serious comic and taking it so seriously as to be offended like this.
And really, a shirt with ‘dickwolves’ on it does not glorify rape or even have anything to do with rape. Dickwolves aren’t real. No one has ever been raped by Dickwolves. Why anyone would be offended by something that only exists in a fantasy realm is beyond me.
Well my little snowflake, the problem is, you don’t get to decide what traumatizes other people. You’re not the authority on what gets to other people. And if someone tells you that something you’re doing is horribly upsetting them and you respond by not only continuing to do it but you double down on the stupid, that’s not them being thin-skinned that’s you being a callous fuckwit. If you’re going to respond to someone being upset by going out of your way to upset them, you’ve made a conscious choice to do so and you’ve bought and paid for whatever you get in return. I have no sympathy for people who make an extra effort to fuck with people just to fuck with them and then complain about getting flak for it.
I don’t believe anyone was traumatized by the comic, or the response.
In fact Kirby herself said that it did not trigger PTSD or anything like that for her. She just felt getting all self righteous and making a stink about it.
If I thought this was harmful to someone I’d agree with you, but I’m not convinced.
OMG, anonymous PA defender #164 doesn’t believe anyone was traumatized by the comic of the response. He thinks it’s just self-righteous bitches looking for blog traffic. I’m so shocked I think I might faint.
That’s a great strategy you got there sport. Don’t have to deal with a problem when you can just claim the problem doesn’t exist. No wonder you guys are so much stronger than us easily upset people.
Well, if you can show me someone who was TRAUMATIZED by this comic strip, then my opinion will change.
No, you won’t. Your opinion won’t change because it’s a closed feedback loop. You don’t believe it’s possible anyone was traumatized by it, therefore anyone claiming to be traumatized by it will be lying, because no one could possibly be traumatized by it.
Also, not interested in changing your opinion. Much more entertaining to get you to show off your own vulnerabilities.
“Well my little snowflake, the problem is, you don’t get to decide what traumatizes other people.”
“You don’t believe it’s possible anyone was traumatized by it, therefore anyone claiming to be traumatized by it will be lying, because no one could possibly be traumatized by it.”
So this person isn’t allowed to say what traumatizes people, but you’re allowed to decide how they’re going to react?
Ummmmm, maybe that’s because I read all their previous posts here, where they continually say that no one should/could have been offended by the comic or the t-shirts?
Also, love you getting offended by my appraisal of this person’s obviously loaded questions. Like nobody’s ever done the “What about all the MEN who get raped, huh?!?” routine on the internet ever and I shouldn’t doubt the sincerity of it for a moment. However, you’re beginning to get a bit repetitive with the “So this person doesn’t get to decide what people are and are not traumatized by, but you get to decide what _____ he’s _____?” thing. Just saying.
You are an ignorant shit nut.
–Like nobody’s ever done the “What about all the MEN who get raped, huh?!?” routine on the internet ever and I shouldn’t doubt the sincerity of it for a moment. –
Wow. This is mind-bogglingly awful. I don’t care how many times someone has brought that up insincerely to you, this reeks of some insensitivity of your own.
To each their own as to what will offend, but if someone comes to you and says “Look, if we’re going to do this, the rape culture extends beyond just women. Men can be even LESS likely to report sexual abuse, and the psychological impact is just as complex and damaging,” and on and on… you think you have a right to doubt their sincerity? Even if they left it at “Men get raped too, you know,” I don’t think it’s anyone’s job to belittle that.
If you don’t expect someone to doubt your sincerity, don’t cast doubts on the sincerity of others before they even speak. I’m not even talking about your response to Tristan, but in what I read as a cold-hearted dismissal of anyone who wants to complicate the gender issues that run under the surface here.
For the record, I’m a woman, just so it doesn’t become some “You’re a douchebag guy making excuses” issue.
“To each their own as to what will offend, but if someone comes to you and says “Look, if we’re going to do this, the rape culture extends beyond just women. Men can be even LESS likely to report sexual abuse, and the psychological impact is just as complex and damaging,” and on and on… you think you have a right to doubt their sincerity? Even if they left it at “Men get raped too, you know,” I don’t think it’s anyone’s job to belittle that.”
That particular line of argument is almost never brought up in the fashion of showing concern for male victims of sexual violence. It’s a concern troll tactic, used to bolster the argument of “Oh yeah, well if you’re so upset about X, how come you don’t care about Y?” or, in the context Tristan used it, to make the argument “Men get raped, they’re not making a big deal out of this like you women are, therefore it’s not a big deal, QED!”. His whole premise was using the fact that men are also victims of sexual violence as a way to claim that NO ONE should be upset by the comic. So I don’t just doubt the sincerity of it, I am 100% sure that it’s not an expression of actual sincere concern for male victims of sexual violence at all. Since it IS a real problem, the fact that he’d use it as a throwaway justification for his own lack of empathy is pretty fucking repulsive. He wasn’t “complicating gender issues”, he was using a legitimate problem in a cynical attempt to get people to shut the hell up. So yeah, now that you mention it, I DO tend to be pretty fucking cold-hearted to people like that.
“For the record, I’m a woman, just so it doesn’t become some “You’re a douchebag guy making excuses” issue.”
No, in this case you’d be a woman inexplicably jumping to the defense of some guy who tried to use male rape as a reason why women shouldn’t/can’t be upset about a comic with a rape joke in it and attributing motives to him that are far more noble than can be realistically inferred from his post. Honestly, I don’t really see how you got to “Look, if we’re going to do this, the rape culture extends beyond just women. Men can be even LESS likely to report sexual abuse, and the psychological impact is just as complex and damaging,”, from his post of “Lots of men are raped in prison or otherwise sexually abused in life, seeing as the comic shows a man being raped, surely it would be more traumatizing for them. So why are there none making as big of a deal out of this as kirby is? Because this didn’t actually traumatize anyone.”. Kinda ends up looking like you went straight to attacking me for questioning his sincerity without actually reading the post I was talking about.
The way you worded it called into question the sincerity of anyone who ever brings that point up to you. I stand by what I said. If words matter so much, as this blog and all its flocking commenters would have us believe (and I do believe they do), then yours matter, as well.
I *have* found in far too many cases that women forget and often shunt aside men who are rape victims, as though that particular dubious distinction belongs to women and women alone. So as I put in my first post– to each his or her own as to what will offend. I found your statement offensive.
Funny, you find in “far too many cases” that women ignore male victims of sexual violence, but you’re giving the benefit of the doubt to the guy whose only use for them was to basically tell women victims of sexual violence they should toughen up and get over it because men weren’t making a fuss.
Well, I stand by what I said. The mention of male rape victims was nothing but a regularly-used and nauseating concern troll. No one here has said anything like “men don’t get raped” or “men getting raped isn’t important”, myself included, with the small exception of a couple of PA defenders downthread from here who said that men being raped is “funny”. I called Tristan out for making a statement that’s been made too many damn times before that has shit to do with actual empathy for rape victims and everything to do with telling rape victims they should shut the hell up and quit harshing his mellow. Perhaps I’m a bit of a cynic, but it takes a little more to convince me that someone cares than “What about the men, huh?” when it’s not followed up by anything more substantial than “Hurrrr, womenz should toughen up cuz guyz is stronger”.
A big round of applause for tristan. You’ve basically summed up my conclusions on the matter. While I don’t read Penny Arcade I am vaguely familiar with it as a gamer, and I became familiar with this situation through other means.
I will preface this by saying I have not been raped, will not claim to know what it is like, nor am I an expert in PTSD. However, from what I have gleaned essentially any event that is psychologically traumatizing can develop into PTSD, and literally anything – related to the event or not – can become a trigger. So what exactly is the point of trigger warnings? Should we preface everything we ever say or do as a trigger warning because maybe, for some reason, someone out there is triggered by it. This doesn’t make sense to me.
It makes even less sense that one who suffers from PTSD would read a comic like PA, in which rape, violence, etc has been depicted many times, if they are triggered by such things.
Your interpretation of PTSD is incorrect. Your interpretation of trigger warnings and their purpose is also incorrect. A simple Google of both of these subjects and some time spent reading will educate you far better than I would be able to do by trying to explain it to you.
So I did as you suggested, and here is what I have come back with.
“Posttraumatic stress disorder (also known as post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD) is a severe anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to any event that results in psychological trauma.”
Check. Doesn’t sound different from what I posted above.
“The intent of a trigger warning is to advertise the potentially emotionally triggering content of a piece, which might revive memories of rape or sexual assault for survivors.”
“Content which is widely agreed by feminist blogs and fandom writers to be warned for:
* graphic descriptions of or extensive discussion of abuse, especially sexual abuse or torture
* graphic descriptions of or extensive discussion of self-harming behaviour such as suicide, self-inflicted injuries or disordered eating
* depictions, especially lengthy or psychologically realistic ones, of the mental state of someone suffering abuse or engaging in self-harming behaviour ”
While I will admit that I was a bit off the mark about trigger warnings, it seems the definition wouldn’t apply to PA anyway – since 1. it isn’t a feminist blog and 2. the mention of rape was hardly graphic, extensive, or realistic.
My real point still stands though – if one is offended or triggered by such things as violence or rape, why would they read a comic like Penny Arcade in which it’s a common theme?
I’m not trying to derail here, I am honestly trying to understand.
Is your point just that they mocked trigger warnings? If so, it seems a little silly to me.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for actually going and reading up on something and thinking. I need a sincerity font, because for realsies, that does not tend to happen when I ask someone to please go research and think on something. I really appreciate you being willing to not only speak out on something that have an opinion on, but being willing to consider others’ input and take that into account.
So! The part about PTSD may have been me misreading/misinterpreting your original comment. I read it and it seemed to me to be saying that PTSD was something that like, slowly grew like a fungus or something, that you developed it gradually and progressively. IDK, when I go re-read your comment, it doesn’t seem as weird or incorrect as it did on my first pass, so I’m sorry for jumping on you about that. I appreciate you still checking it out.
I personally didn’t expect PA to go for the suggestion of trigger warnings — but that doesn’t prohibit other fans from asking for them or invalidate their requests. As to why someone who had a problem with the original comic was a fan, that’s something to ask a person who had a problem with the original comic. I didn’t personally take issue — however I’ve been trying throughout to be clear that the people who spoke out against the first comic had a right to do so. I realize the majority of people may not have had a problem, but I am personally wary of saying or implying that somehow the original comic was “okay”, and thus dismissing the complaints made against it.
My point, in part, does pertain to them mocking trigger warnings, yes. I understand that may seem silly to you, but considering that 5 seconds of silliness and putting a trigger warning could prevent me from being triggered and suddenly feeling like every person around me is going to attack me (even my coworkers, even my boyfriend), it’s something that I really appreciate. To make fun of that — not just not do it, but make fun of it, and make fun of it because some of their fans came to them upset and triggered and offended — seems like the lowest possible response.
Thank you for coming back to my comment and not just writing me off as another troll. I am not really vested on one side of this argument or the other (and it would be incredibly narrowminded to say there are only two “sides” to this situation). And I really, truly did read the recommended reading links before I posted (well, most of them).
Again thank you for responding, and thank you for making me look into trigger warnings – between your post and what I read I have a much better understanding of why they’re used and why people ask for them to be used. I still think it was a little silly to ask a place like PA to use them, but I also see now that they were being pretty dick-ish in the way they handled things.
I admitted in my first post to not being super familiar with PA, so perhaps I am taking things out of context. But here are my opinions: I am not going to say that the original strip was right/wrong/justified in the joke that it made. Whether or not it perpetuates rape culture I think is iffy (mostly because I am not familiar enough with the topic to say so, and partly because I agree with another commenter in that the strip only works if rape is seen as a terrible thing). The reply strip is mocking, a bit assholish, and missing the point.
Now let’s talk about the shirts. The problem I see with the shirts is that they only mean rape within the context of that one strip. I originally didn’t even make the connection until this whole debacle was brought to my attention. I just thought it was satirizing sports team mascots and I assumed Dickwolf meant “a wolf that is a dick”. You know, like “jerk wolf” or something. Which is why I, personally, have a problem with saying Dickwolf means Rapewolf. The average person that isn’t familiar with PA isn’t going to make that connection. However… in light of these shirts being released to rub salt into the wounds of people who raised issues with the strip, yeah, I can see where the problem arises. I am lead to believe, however, that the release of the shirt and the fiasco with the strip are simply coincidence. After all, it takes several months to get shirts into production and ready for sale.
Anyway. The end result? Confusion, hurt feelings, and animosity all around. I agree that PA went about this in the wrong way. It’s too bad, really.
I’m sorry if this comment seems rambling or doesn’t make much sense. It’s quite late and I should be in bed. I just felt the need to put my feelings out there.
I wouldn’t say several months to organize that, and I am saying that as someone who has worked in the industry. Once you’ve gotten a design up and running (not hard when you’ve got an artist as talented as Gabe in house) you can get preliminary orders ready for shipping within two weeks sometimes.
Bearing that in mind? The mocking strip and the announcement of the dickwolves shirts were two months out from the original comic. There had been no other mention of the Dickwolves in the comic prior to these two strips and nothing else made mention of the dickwolves afterwards.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/13/
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/10/6/
The two douchebuckles from Penny Arcade had the opportunity to be the better people. They could have walked away from it, with apology or without. They chose not to. They chose to continue to be nasty about it to pander to all their special little snowflake readers who are so fucking put upon and persecuted that they can’t manage the effort required to not be assholes to other people. They chose to curry favor with the dregs of the internet, the people that get off on shocking and upsetting people with no consequence to themselves, the people who think the suffering of others exists only to provide them with “lulz”. Fuck these bottom-feeding wanna-be monsters and their whining.
Over 300 comments? Wow, that’s a lot of troll attention for something that is “just a t-shirt/joke/comic, OMG, lighten up!”.
Come on, how do you expect us all to realize how unimportant and weak we are unless they keep coming here to tell us that over and over and over? I mean, you make it sound like THEY’RE the thin-skinned ones who can’t let their precious heroes be criticized for a second without feeling the need to tell us how wrong we are by doing the exact kind of shit they claim they’re not doing.
Not everyone who disagrees with what is being said in this thread is just here to be “drooling fanboys” and “defend their heroes”. Some people, myself included, actually just don’t agree with what kirbybits is saying. And tbh, it would be nice to be able to have a diverging opinion on this whole fucking mess, without instantly being labelled as some sort of rape-supporting woman-hating monster.
This whole thing is getting sort of Fox News. I mean, Gabe is taking it from all angles because there are people like @DickWolvington and @teamrape posting shit in support of him. Even though he’s tweeted and people that are arguing for him have tweeted these cocksmokers and told them to cut it out. Especially on the internet, being guilty by association starts getting a little ridiculous.
Cry me a fucking river for Gabe. Maybe he should have thought about what kind of people he’d embolden by taking the “joke” as far as he did. Imagine that, act like you’re trivializing rape and making fun of rape survivors and suddenly you’re getting support from people trivializing rape and making fun of rape survivors. And spare me the whining about “guilt by association”, if you’re going to line up on the side that keeps saying “Get over it, it was just a joke and we get to decide what’s traumatic and what’s not”, don’t cry to me about who you’re being associated with. I’m supposed to feel sorry for you and Gabe and the rest of Team Dickwolves? Sorry, not happening. I save my compassion for people who deserve it. This whole thing went out of control because Gabe and Tycho decided to dial the stupid up to 11 in response to criticism. Nobody forced them to make the shirts. Nobody forced them into the “Oh you’re offended? We’ll show you offensive!” stance. They’re the ones who felt the need to put a thumb in the eye of the people criticizing them. It’s a little late for “It’s not our fault, we didn’t want this!”.
I already knew that I couldn’t give this more than one thumbs up but I still clicked it twenty times just in case; you have summed that up so very very well.
I never said you should feel sorry for Gabe. I said a lot of the stuff getting slung at him is due to what Teamrape and DickWolvington are saying, even though he himself has told them to cut it out.
I also never said I thought it was just a joke and you should get over it. What you should do is stop putting words in my mouth. What I said is that not everyone who disagrees on here is doing so because they like Penny Arcade. You’re treating this like people are either agreeing with KirbyBits, or they’re some sort of rabid PA fanboys.
Do I think the T-shirt should have been released, no. Do I think they should have let it go the first time people started getting upset and emailing after the very first comic, yes. If not out of agreement with the feminist (and I mean that in a categorical, not pejorative way) perspective on what was happening, then instead for purely political and PR reasons. I don’t however, think that going hardcore-militant-burn-PA-to-the-ground will work either. Hostility breeds hostility. Look what’s happening right now after they fired the first salvo at the people who were uncomfortable with the comic. Eventually, somebody has to back down and come back to rational non-inflammatory responses.
“hardcore-militant-burn-PA-to-the-ground”
Is this how you categorize someone ranting on a blog? Would you mind elaborating a little?
“I don’t however, think that going hardcore-militant-burn-PA-to-the-ground will work either.”
I agree. I’m not trying to burn PA to the ground – I’m saying, in a variety of ways, that this is not a professional organization. And as someone in the game industry, and therefore someone for whom an event like PAX is a form of being at work, they’re creating a really hostile working environment. As a fan, I was extremely disappointed in PA’s handling of complaints – they almost never do response comics, and why they felt it was necessary to do one when the “opposition” was rape survivors and their allies I’m not sure I’ll ever understand. When they released the shirt, I worked with an artist to create a different shirt in protest, to make a point about who is being harmed by this, and to raise money for an organization that provides support for rape survivors. That was my engagement with them as a fan.
As someone who works in an industry that collaborates with PAX, my reaction was to write the “Why I’m Not Speaking at PAX 2011″ post, to try and point out to people in the industry that I felt PA’s merchandising wasn’t something that we, as an industry, want to tacitly approve of by participating at their conferences. I focused on the shirt because while an apology would feel nice as a fan, going to a work event where the hosts are selling triggering merch is a pretty fucking hostile work environment (for me, anyway).
As I said…somewhere else in…one of the posts…(I’m sorry, I’m at a point where my blog, which used to get like, 15 hits a day and almost never got comments, has become impossible to mentally navigate), if PA would have, at every juncture, just let it go, the court of public opinion would have stayed resolutely in their favor. But this dogged insistance to make sure that no, really, are you clear on what they think? Cause let’s make another news post telling you what we think of the people who complained. Dis-inviting people from PAX, going on twitter and saying Mike is going to wear a Dickwolves shirt to PAX, Mike telling people he feels good about supporting rape culture…that’s ridiculous shit. I’m going to identify it as ridiculous shit for as long as it continues. Criticizing the public behavior of the public founders of public events that I’m supposedly “welcome” at doesn’t feel out of line to me, nor does it feel inflammatory.
“I never said you should feel sorry for Gabe. I said a lot of the stuff getting slung at him is due to what Teamrape and DickWolvington are saying, even though he himself has told them to cut it out.”
Then as I said, if Gabe doesn’t want people like that supporting him, maybe Gabe shouldn’t have let that genie out of the bottle in the first place. And if you’re not expecting it to garner sympathy, why bother mentioning it? He’s the one that helped get them all worked up, it’s not anybody else’s responsibility to try and talk them down and it’s certainly nobody else’s fault that they’re making him look bad.
“You’re treating this like people are either agreeing with KirbyBits, or they’re some sort of rabid PA fanboys.”
No, I’m treating this like people are either seeing PA’s behavior as reprehensible or they’re trying to find some rationalization for why it’s not reprehensible. I just happen to be on the side that seem them as reprehensible and the rationalizations I keep seeing about why I shouldn’t got old a while ago.
“Look what’s happening right now after they fired the first salvo at the people who were uncomfortable with the comic. Eventually, somebody has to back down and come back to rational non-inflammatory responses.”
That responsibility lies with the people who fired the first salvo, not the people they were firing at. This “both sides are being just as bad about this” routine is complete bullshit. One side made a “joke”. People objected to it and spoke their concerns about it. The response was not to listen and understand, it wasn’t even to ignore, it was to escalate the situation. There’s no even distribution of responsibility to back down here. Nobody’s forcing them to continue to be assholes either.
“And tbh, it would be nice to be able to have a diverging opinion on this whole fucking mess, without instantly being labelled as some sort of rape-supporting woman-hating monster.”
Are people actually being labelled as that here? Maybe a few extreme cases but not on the whole, no. I just think people are wrong or missing the point.
Or haven’t stopped to consider the point of what is being said, which is why we have eleventy billion arguments about censorship and/or ‘i had someone murdered therefore all killing shoiud be taken out of everything ever’ arguments.
As for the last paragraph; what MertvayaRuka said. Totally and 100%.
The first part was more addressed to what’s been happening on other areas where this whole debate is going on. I can understand why because it’s the internet and people tend towards automatic entrenchment into their own camp, but still. I for one don’t agree with the idea of rape culture. I also don’t agree with a lot of the research that goes on to support feminist arguments. Now don’t take this to say that I don’t think there is a good reason for a feminist movement to exist, or that I think that women are fully equal to men in our society.
However, because I don’t agree with all of the arguments being put up by the Anti-PA group, I’m instantly discarded as not having any role in a discussion. Look at the link put up as required reading for this post, “A Few Things To Stop Doing When You Find A Feminist Blog”. It’s pretty harshly dismissive of anyone coming in and wanting to discuss this rationally, if they don’t have a BA in Women’s Studies.
The case of the people against PA’s actions (hell I’m even against some of what they did) isn’t being helped by being dismissive, flippant, or hostile towards people arguing against them. I understand that’s a pretty automatic response, especially since this is the freaking internet and trolls abound, but it still doesn’t do any good for anyone. The people that are going to be hostile, are already hostile. The people that aren’t, won’t respond to being browbeaten and told the only reason they aren’t hostile is because they don’t understand the issues. Reasonable, polite discourse is pretty much the only way to get people to actually -listen- to what’s being said. Especially with issues as inflammatory as this.
Here, here. Full and frank discussion is fine but lets not try and make this personal and to quote PA not act like a bunch of shitcocks about the whole issue.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/
“Now don’t take this to say that I don’t think there is a good reason for a feminist movement to exist, or that I think that women are fully equal to men in our society.”
Is this sentence how you meant it to appear?
“Not everyone who disagrees with what is being said IN THIS THREAD is just…”
Emphasis mine. You can see how I might have thought you were specifically talking about in this thread. I’m sure on other places people are being assholes about it. Both sides have their assholes. I have no qualms about being an asshole in retaliation to assholes but I will try and be civil to those who can actually make a point equally civil (and not be the 80th person to contribute ‘but they have something that rapes fruit too’). That being said, look at Kirby and how she’s been handling some of these posts. There has been some nasty stuff and she only started to lose her cool in the third consecutive post.
I disagree with several of the points you have made. But if I have ever made a comment like “drooling fanboys” I assure you I’m not referring to you.
What I meant by women not being fully equal to men was to say that I don’t think women are entirely equal to men in terms of social and environmental advantages. And obviously, this is a bad thing.
Ah, I see. Then yeah I agree.
How about you stop claiming that every single comment that doesn’t agree with yours is trying to de-rail the discussion.
I mean, for Christ’s sake, is it illegal to disagree with you on your own blog or something?
People are welcome to disagree with me – I’ve actually had some great discussion with people who disagree with my take on this, mostly on Twitter, over the past week. People are not welcome to use derailing tactics to try to “prove” how wrong I am to express how Penny Arcade is impacting me. It is possible to disagree and present alternate takes on the situation, but sadly most of the dissenting commenting traffic through here has been wheeling out the same few tired attacks, and so I end up identifying the same type of derailing tactic over and over.
Here from Shakesville. Just wanted to say that I’m sorry you have to deal with these tireless wankstains and their rape apology. You’re awesome, and I would totally do your taxes.
I don’t care whatever mental conditions Mike has, it’s no excuse for joking around about rape, then making $$$ from it by further mocking the people you offended on the subject.
I’m glad they are feeling pressure, I say send letters to the games advertising on their site and give them links to this nonsense so it stops funding their douchebaggery. I bet they will find that pretty funny!
This is all such BS. The strip was funny. It wasn’t about rape at all, it was about the bizarre nature of some MMO quests. The world has bigger problems. One of them being ACTUAL rapes.
“This is all such BS. The strip was funny. It wasn’t about rape at all, it was about the bizarre nature of some MMO quests”
Thank you for typing what only 234897529487234 people have said before you. Try looking what’s already said before posting and see if you can contribute something new next time.
“The world has bigger problems. One of them being ACTUAL rapes.
And if you look at what is actually being said, we’re trying to prevent them by doing this!
Also fuck you for thinking we cannot multitask problems, even when one is ‘bigger’ than the other. That’s like saying you cannot complain that your car broke down because babies are dying of disease in other places.
I never knew about this website, or the author, before today and the dickwolves posting. I still don’t, because I didn’t bother to see what your name was or the actual name of your blog.
This whole thing comes of as some sort of niche perpetuation of the all encompassing celebrity worship culture of America. You are some sort of very tiny TMZ, critiquing the actions of not-on-any-lettered-list-and-very-minor celebrities. I really, really don’t understand what you’re trying to do here, but it comes off as the deepest, darkest shade of pathetic.
Look at me guys. I have a personal problem which I will never take the responsibility of dealing with and instead will force it on everyone else. Let those people walk on eggshells around me, now and forever.
Trigger Warning For Discussions of Rape
Courtney,
I have two questions about this issue. Honest answers would make it much easier for me to see things from your point of view, which I swear I am trying to do (and before you even say it, I understand that you have no obligation to enlighten someone who thought “The 6th Slave” was funny when they first read it, and still does. I’m just trying to respectfully dialogue out the areas that prohibit me from agreeing with you).
You state that you have been a fan of Penny Arcade for a decade. This immediately made me think to ask why it was okay to laugh at other people’s pain, but not your own (obviously ‘you’ are not the sole victim of rape, and I in no way intended that to read so, it’s just shorter than typing ‘all the victims of rape across the world’ which I’ve had to do anyway to avoid the surgical dissection Michael Krahulik’s blog post received above). You deflect this by arguing that it is illogical to be banned from speaking out against something offensive if you have ever silently allowed something else that was offensive to exist, which is a good point. You further cripple that argument by pointing out that we are not the people we were 10 years ago (or really even yesterday, but again for conservation of space I’m trying to tighten things up without being totally reductive). Another good point. However, below I have posted links to two comics from the Penny-Arcade archives. The first is from December 2008, barely two years ago. The other is much older, from November 2003, but reading your post it would be plausible to think you may have read it.
Dec 2008 – http://bit.ly/m39g
Nov 2003 – http://bit.ly/5AI3
In both comics rape is not the setup for a joke but the explicit punchline(Penny-Arcade’s archive actually returns 5 comics not related to “The 6th Slave” when you use the search term ‘rape’). Especially in the case of the comic from Dec 2008 it would seem recent enough to make an “I’ve matured since then argument” less believable. It also deals explicitly with the same subject matter as the strip being discussed in your post. So my first question is why is it “The 6th Slave” that has elicited this response from you and not other similar (or worse) work in Penny-Arcade’s oeuvre? This is a question that I really want to ask of all the people talking about this issue on Twitter but 140 characters limits the context and links I can use to state my point.
My second question really doesn’t require any setup. Simply put, in your eyes, what would it take to mend this situation? Given the possibility to manipulate every variable in this equation, is it even possible to resolve this situation? If not, why not?
I don’t know why this particular comic was such a major starting point in the argument, but it really doesn’t matter when or why it got brought up. The issue here is the reactions and responses from the creators. (The author of this blog wasn’t the one to first bring up the issue, the person who did might have been new to the comic, or it might have been a “I can’t take this anymore” moment, but like I said, really not important why it got brought up)
This post really has nothing to do with how bad that particular comic was. I for one, didn’t have much of a problem with the comic initially, but have a serious problem with selling shirts like that as a response.
I think (and not to put words in Courtney’s mouth) the problem she had was more with Gabe and Tycho’s response than with what was in the comic. Although I believe the comic was what originally caused the issue.
As for the second part, I’d like to know what the answer to that would be as well. What would it take for you to call it even?
She certainly wasn’t happy with the comic, no, but as so many people have said, it would have blown over MONTHS ago if PA had simply stopped prodding at it.
You’re taking an inside joke “Dickwolves” and making it seem like it represents rape. I can say for a fact that I heard about Dickwolves at PAX in ’09.
Now, if Mike and Jerry were to make a comic strip that features a famous character, let’s say Santa, and have it mention that Santa likes to rape people.
Does that change the original view of Santa Claus? Am I no longer allowed to wear clothing that references him?
This is how your argument feels to me. I’ll admit this right now, when I was younger, I was sexually assaulted. I wasn’t raped, per say, but it was a traumatic experience. Now guess what, I laughed like crazy whenever I first heard of Dickwolves. After seeing the comic, I laughed even more.
Dickwolves were originally just a joke about how it would be funny if wolves just had dicks for every appendage. Now, because of people who have been sheltered all their lives and haven’t learned how to DEAL with problems have been complaining, the rape factor has been thrust onto the image of the Dickwolf.
I could care less at how insensitive I sound right now. It pains me to see how everything in our society now has to be catered to making everyone feel like the world is a great place where nothing bad ever happens. Tough shit, the world sucks.
Oh, and if you don’t agree with their humor, simply don’t read their comics and go to their conventions anymore. It’s not like anyone’s forcing you to. Even so, the internet is free game. They have a site, so they can post whatever they’d like to. You have the right not to look at it.
Now I’m gonna see about printing my own version of a Dickwolves shirt. I’ll just pass them out next PAX for free to whoever wants one.
Grow up, stop complaining about every little thing on the internet that offends you, and move on with your life.
It’s one thing to be an advocate for providing help with rape victims and giving out ways to make things easier for them and it’s another to act like a over-zealous crazed feminist with an agenda to wipe out the word rape from every fucking thing that offends you.
You are the latter. I would expect someone like you would be more about making rape victims lives easier rather than going on personal crusades against a -web comic- who made a comic that featured fake wolf creatures raping fake people. I call it a personal crusade because it’s not the entire web comic you are upset with. You said yourself you were a fan of the comic and yet you put up with the other hugely obscene things in it.
If you put as much energy into helping others as you do acting out against some fucking image on the internet that offended you I bet you’d make a hell of a difference in the world.
Would like to follow up by putting back in a point that others have brought up.
The mention of “rape” wasn’t even the joke of the comment. it was in no way glorifying rape. If anything it was a haunting image of rape.
I guess we should go start burning all books now that even mention rape, no matter what the context is….
So then why did Tycho and Gabe scream, shit themselves, make a hostile follow-up strip and decide to market a T-shirt that says “Team Rape Monster” TWO MONTHS LATER, instead of shrugging their shoulders and letting it go?
Maybe because somebody dared to point out that perhaps, just perhaps, they did a strip that was kinda fucked up?
Based on a tweet from the ACTUAL Scott Kurtz, this person is NOT HIM. I’m strike-throughing so that the discussion comments made in reply to it don’t lose their context, but I likewise I absolutely do not want anyone thinking Scott said any of this fucked up shit.
I personally work with Jerry and Mike, although I do not participate in the Penny Arcade strip. I just wanted to clarify something that a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding.N
o one is going to win this argument.Not Jerry and Mike.Not Kirbybits.
The only person that has won is the sick son of a bitch who raped her. He took what he wanted from her and he will never be punished for it. He gets to go on every day drinking, smoking, having fun, hanging out with friends, dating, etc. At the moment of coitus, he felt nothing but the greatest joy a man can feel — an orgasm. This moment which has ruined her life, was essentially the moment he felt the greatest pleasure he has ever experienced. He is the person we should truly be concerned with. He used her for pleasure and then threw her away.Let’s stop fighting and focus on what is really important. Rape is WRONG. Rapists are terrible people who should be imprisoned. We shouldn’t worry about comedians who use it for humor, but focus instead of people who actually commit the act.Thank you.QFT
Can I clarify something for you? There’s something you seem to be misunderstanding.
“Let’s stop fighting and focus on what is really important. Rape is WRONG. Rapists are terrible people who should be imprisoned. We shouldn’t worry about comedians who use it for humor, but focus instead of people who actually commit the act.”
This is WRONG. What we have been talking about is how rape jokes feed into rape culture, which normalizes and legitimizes rape as just an unfortunate but inevitable facet of life.
Saying we should all shut up and focus on the rapists instead of the comedians misses the point. You have people like http://twitter.com/#!/ianfirth/status/31582490846044160 or like http://twitter.com/#!/DickWolvington or like http://twitter.com/#!/teamrape taking up the banner and harassing women in the absurd defense of a fucking t-shirt women have said is triggering. You have comments like http://twitter.com/#!/DJNephilim/status/31798177027850240 which completely fucking miss the point, like, hello, it’s not about a fucking SHIRT, it’s about the fact that the shirt is literally Pro Team Rapes-People-to-Sleep, and the fact that rape victims are uncomfortable in the presence of a Go Team Rapist t-shirt, and WHY THE HELL IS THAT WEIRD?
You and Mike and Jerry are cultural trendsetters here. They had a huge chance to say “wow, you know, treating rape like a punchline was maybe not the best move, sorry about that” and this would have ended. In August. But they didn’t, they felt the need to market shirts that – again – are pro-team-rapist, and then yell loud and long about how they were being oppressed by people who were literally having panic attacks at the thought of being at this con surrounded by men wearing PRO RAPIST TSHIRTS.
And part of what makes this whole thing so upsetting is that for you, and for Mike, and for Jerry, this is an intellectual exercise. You can, at any time, choose to turn off the computer and walk away and dismiss us all as rabid hosebeats who are just looking for something to be offended by. And we? We get to sit here, surrounded by dudebros in Dickwolves shirts posting under @teamrape on twitter, feeling like our pleas for help and understanding and maybe a little less of the rape-is-funny meme have gone completely fucking unheard.
Again.
“This is WRONG. What we have been talking about is how rape jokes feed into rape culture, which normalizes and legitimizes rape as just an unfortunate but inevitable facet of life.”
I disagree with this. They serve to reinforce the fact that they are NOT normal and legitimate. Think about why the comic was supposed to be funny.
You have a slave who is suffering about the worst treatment you can imagine, but because the player character has already done what they game said he needed to do, he doesn’t care. The humor lies in the disparity of real life and video games (specifically roleplaying games where you’re supposedly emulating a real life in a fictional setting). The only way to derive humor from the joke is to first understand that keeping a slave, beating them, and allowing your savage mythical creature to rape them unconscious is a BAD thing.
In relying on the idea that rape is in fact a BAD thing, it reinforces the very concept.
“Think about why the comic was supposed to be funny.
You have a slave who is suffering about the worst treatment you can imagine, but because the player character has already done what they game said he needed to do, he doesn’t care.”
I’m sorry, but in a world where rape is simultaneously one of the most common & under-reported crimes worldwide, I really don’t see how a player character not finding the rape of an NPC worthy of their time or effort to stop is funny at all.
But whatever, fine, in all honesty I found the comic to be in poor taste but not particularly objectionable.
What I DO find objectionable is what happened after the strip. I do not understand why a Team Rapist (because as we have both just agreed and acknowledged, Dickwolves are rapists) tshirt is an appropriate response to people saying the comic was upsetting, and further why they would pull the Dickwolves tshirts from the store in an effort to make PAX “inclusive” and yet state that they would be wearing their own shirts.
How are rape survivors supposed to react to being confronted by Team Rapist tshirts?
I can see how it would be interpreted that way. I’m not going to say you’re insensible because of it, but I think it’s being colored that way BECAUSE of the debate surrounding it.
People on one side of the argument see anything involving Dickwolves (With the exception of Kirby Bit’s t-shirt? I would like to come back to that.) as being encouraging to a “rape culture” and so yeah, it seems like Team Rapist to them.
To the other side though, it may have been a couple things. One would be that it’s a firm stance that they stand by their comic and their position in the debate. A second would just be that animal names are popular team names. Two animals I recall being unique to Penny Arcade are Deepcrows and Dickwolves. It could easily be a coin toss at that point, though Dickwolves is the more recent reference I believe.
As far as the “Dickwolf Survivor” t-shirt, I really don’t see how that is any better than the original. If the argument is that any mention of rape that doesn’t explicitly demonize it in overt terms must trivialize it, then it seems remarkably hypocritical to me regardless of how much money goes to charity because of it. Would Kirby Bits endorse Penny Arcade putting their shirts back up if they did the same as her?
We don’t know if all Dickwolves are rapists. That seems like an unfortunate stereotype
except there weren’t any rape jokes.
the punchline wasn’t rape.
the follow up response which explicitly stated rape rape rape etc. wasn’t even about rape.
You are also using the extremists (teamrape, really?) to push your agenda as correct. I’m comfortable in assuming that if you need to be anti-extremist it’s because your argument lacks any sort of finesse or subtletly itself.
Where you’re coming off as a hosebeat looking for something to be offended by is when you claim something that has nothing to do with your argument does, and we the mass populous ignorant to whatever the latest subculture label jargon are just misinformed and unable to know it.
Uh, no.
Those with PTSD and those real-life experiences ought to know that their triggers and knee-jerks are just that, and can’t vilify others for insensitivity as well as pray for one day the world to be seen perfectly through our protective bubble.
I’ll decide for myself what is insensitive to those who’ve been raped, I don’t need blogs or links to extremists for that.
If anyone of my friends or family wore a dickwolves shirt, we’d share a laugh about how horrible the world can be and appreciate others for recognizing it.
I’m comfortable in distinguishing when I was forcefully raped as not being the fault, outcropping, growth or encouraged by a culture that supports rape.
That entire concept is bizarre to me and I’m really not sure what the end result is. The stories of celebrities (from high school sports teams on up) to those with power (government officials, kidnapping and brainwashing allegations, sexual slavery) are simply not indicative of a subculture to me.
I’m more concerned with how bankers “rape” us. Or how sports organizations “rape” minorities in modern day slave trading.
This really looks to me like winning a war on your peers and allies because you’re losing the war on your oppressors.
Taking satire down a peg is a fool’s errand.
Besides, I don’t think you or anyone is in any position to dictate how those of us within a rape culture copes with this unchaning, old-as-time-itself fact of life. Those with power exploit those without.
Good luck fighting that fight!
In case you missed it, they were being proactive about pointing out how lame MMORPG questing is by pointing it out in a grossly satirical manner. IE, they were a voice of empowerment for a playerbase being “raped” by the companies who can’t come up with a less nonsensical solution or game mechanic.
And so, yet another way their comic was firmly anti-rape.
I’m just curious as to why this is being overlooked. I used to read these pages for inspiration within this very mysoginist industry that I’m a part of, but all of this grandstanding around this noncontroversy is completely undermining its gravity.
I’m also speaking out here because this really appears to be the source of it as a controversy in the first place.
Scott, you’ve spoken in completely unnecessary (and inaccurate) detail about a traumatic detail of the OP’s life, why? Because rape is wrong? Guess what; we kinda knew that, barring one or two trolls. Why did you bother to clap it out?
I would have given you a bit more benefit of the doubt but when you go out of your way to ridicule trigger warnings on your twitter feed then you’re really not worth it. Get a clue, or better yet, a shred of empathy for the people who get triggered by these things, rather than mock them.
Wow, your “description” of sexual assault is rather astounding.
You claim to be condemning it but you describe it almost lovingly as “the greatest joy a man can feel” and then highlighting your belief that the perpetrator experienes no consequences. Talk about promoting rape culture! That’s about as solid an anti-rape endorsement as telling kids about how awesome drugs make you feel but they still shouldn’t do it.
I am a man and I absolutely think we should look at comedians who use rape jokes for punchlines, those of us who laugh at rape jokes, and people like you who seem to have an ambivalent-at-best notion of sexual assault. Rapists are not just “terrible people who should be imprisoned,” rapists might actually be your best friend, your brother, your uncle, you. When we make light of rape and actually encourage joking around about it or dismissing the outrage of others, we are essentially telling our peers that it is not problematic. Check yourself.
He didn’t say that rape is the greatest joy a man can feel, he said orgasm is, and it’s true. And he didn’t experience any consequences, because Kirby never reported it.
I think that wasn’t really necessary either way. I had to read it twice myself.
I’m sorry, you must not know anything about kirbybits. She revealed that she never reported the attack, so of course the rapist would not have been punished. Pvponline isn’t talking about rapists in general, just her particular rapist. Calm down man.
There are personal consequences of living with having committed violent acts against another person apart from legal punishment. His portrayal of the imagined reality of the perpetrator read to me like a somewhat idealized portrait, though I now see that he specified legal punishment. I still find his description problematic.
The way you describe the rape in such garish detail leads me to suspect you’re getting some sort of pleasure out of the concept. I mean, “This moment which has ruined her life, was essentially the moment he felt the greatest pleasure he has ever experienced.” Dude WTF?!?
Wow, I knew Scott Kurtz was an asshole, but who knew he was a creep, too?(assuming that’s actually Scott Kurtz)
Holy christ is this post creepy. I hope it’s not really the PvPOnline guy.
I don’t see what’s wrong with Scott’s comment. You people are looking for sickness where there isn’t any. This just proves that you think that all men are rapists or are somehow fascinated by rape.
I have never once thought about rape and yes I am a male. I’m sorry if this blows your mind. This really bothers me. I’m sorry you have to deal with these accusations Scott.
Let’s all be internet adults here and recognize this is a troll impersonating Scott Kurtz. It would be unfair to even suggest otherwise.
If he is a troll, I don’t get the joke.
He is saying that rape is wrong. That’s something we all agree on.
The “joke” is that he said rape was wrong, then turned around and described rape from the rapist’s perspective in loving, creepy detail.
You don’t that oversimplifies what we are talking about?
Was this a debate about “Is Rape Bad Y/N?” or is it a little bit more complex than that?
Not so sure, me. Here’s a few tweets from the guy:
*Headline: Dickwolves end strong season with disappointing loss to Shakesville Trigger Warnings.
*@bethysphere trigger warning: your whiney self entitled tweets
*Now that the Dickwolves shirts are gone I’ll feel MUCH safer playing Bayonetta, Dante’s Inferno and shooting hookers in GTA at PAX. #whew
There’s a few conversations going on with @bethysphere and it goes on a bit more than that, but I’m going to automatically assume this is at troll here.
Just saying – if you really believe Scott is trolling Kirbybits’ comments with graphic descriptions of rape you can send him an e-mail and ask him yourself.
Don’t feed the trolls.
white-knight.jpg
Fair call; and I didn’t clarify I was suspect of his identity in my post. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s entirely unfair to think that this might also actually be the work of the real Mister Kurtz based on opinions he’s made elsewhere.
I’ve already flicked him a tweet asking for confirmation; no response at time of this post.
Hey, when you’re right you’re right.
“pvponline Scott Kurtz
@kirbybits That is 100% NOT ME. Please remove the post. I’m sorry that you’re having to deal with this kind of stuff.”
Hilarious. That’s what you are. An added joke of somebody who massively lost context to the original one.
The original joke didn’t include the concept of rape because it was funny. It had it because the very context of rape being an unforgivable thing, yet still being incapable of getting the player character to care, was where the comedy lay.
The player could have saved the slave in as little as ten seconds of gameplay. Terrible, awful things happen to that slave, but as a digital entity they don’t matter in the player’s mind.
This is where the comedy lay. You are a self important fool.
Mike’s comment about you having control over your PTSD was not unwarranted. If you have that as a problem, don’t go to Penny Arcade. Don’t go to PAX. You are too burdened with other problems to go looking for comedy from people with a slightly raunchy approach.
Get over your own problems before you become a problem for others.
I think you’re great kirby. Thanks for standing up to this offensive nonsense.
oh my god I wish I had a word that would instantly make 50% of the world look like criminals, ones that should be arrested for thought crimes at all times, because at one point in their lives, they could potentially commit a crime.
Fucking stop being offended by everything you thin-skinned people. Did you not get bullied enough in high school to develop a bit of resistance? Did your parents stick up to your bullies for you? Why does everything offend you? I don’t take offense to the N word, and I’m black, in fact it often makes me laugh that people think a single word could be so offensive that it would actually hurt me if they said it.
And please don’t say that women have had it harder than black people, or rape victims. You don’t want to go there.
“And please don’t say that women have had it harder than black people, or rape victims. You don’t want to go there.”
Anyone who says that is a tool, no doubt about it.
That said, no one has.
“oh my god I wish I had a word that would instantly make 50% of the world look like criminals, ones that should be arrested for thought crimes at all times, because at one point in their lives, they could potentially commit a crime.”
Who the fuck is saying this.
Ah yes, the harden the fuck up argument. Where is my bingo card again?
“please don’t say that women have had it harder than black people, or rape victims.”
THERE ARE NO BLACK FEMALE RAPE VICTIMS EVERYBODY
SUCH THINGS DO NOT EXIST
By focusing on an irrelevant point, your argument is now invalid.
Good day sir/madam.
Back, for one last time.
Everyone arguing for PA, hear this: It’s a waste of time. No one here is going to listen to you no matter how well thought and civil your arguments are.
That being said, perhaps the other side could do this as well. No one really won here, still no shirts, but PA didn’t pull them because they agree with Kirbybits & Co.
Yay.
Lets all just shake hands, say “Well shit” and move on.
Sound good?
Is it wrong that at this point I just want BOTH sides of this fight to shut the hell up and get over themselves?
On one side, you can’t define rape as being personally horrific and thus culturally unapproachable. That’s as asinine as it is unrealistic. Whining about every single word some random guy on some random site said about something that was only tangentially related to something that upsets you makes you look self-centered and childish.
On the other side, calling women “bitches,” and threatening to rape them “to death” isn’t really helping anybody’s claims that this is censorious and petty. All behavior like this is doing is painting all PAXers with a very wide and nasty brush. You’ve done nothing but make the very flimsily-constructed rage of your “opponents” look entirely valid.
And as for Mike, specifically, though I’m certain he’ll never read this – you’re a businessman. You have to attend to and protect your assets. The best way to do that right now would be to shut your yap before you ostracise one half of your readership or the other, either by implying that some of your readers are rape-supporters, or by implying that you’re okay with rape against the others.
Speaking in general, shutting up, getting over yourselves, and realizing that none of this was nearly as big a deal as you’ve all made it is a good first step for everybody involved.
To paraphrase Harriet J., who is linked to from this very page, PAXers can be shitty *people* without being shitty *PAXers.* Likewise, people can be shitty *feminists* without being shitty *people.*
I vote that everybody go back to their respective corners for a nice little time-out, and determine just how much they think they’re accomplishing or going to accomplish by trying to stir up a group-wide flame war.
I don’t want to discount the OP’s argument outright, she makes good points, but it’s pretty ridiculous how easy it is to make Mike sound like a horrible person when you put unintended emphasis on his words by capitalizing the ones you choose.
For example:
“It’s true that we have decided to remove the Dickwolves shirt from the store. SOME people are happy about this but a lot more of you are upset.”
Wow! What an asshole! Or:
“It’s true that we have decided to remove the Dickwolves shirt from the store. Some PEOPLE are happy about this but a lot more of you are upset.”
People are happy the shirt is gone. Non-people (aka Dickwolves) are sad.
Sorry, “hey if I add emphasis where there was none it makes him sound horrible” is a ridiculous argument.
It’s easy to add emphasis to anything to accentuate things towards the assholish…
“People are happy the shirt is gone. NON-PEOPLE(aka Dickwolves) are sad.”
So basically, since I’m sad, I’m a non-person? Wow, what an asshole.
There’s a reason those words weren’t capitalized (I believe they use italics more than caps for emphasis, FYI), its because that emphasis isn’t there. And thus the asshole isn’t there. And thus you’re creating a strawman and doing a good job attacking it.
I was highlighting words and distinctions made in his writing to continue the false division between the categories “fan” and “someone who objects to PA’s/my behavior.”
By addressing the letter to “you”, and identifying “you” as “fans who are upset”, referring to those protesting as “some people” distances those objecting from the fan base (inaccurately) and perpetuates their stance that they’re being pushed around by mean ol’ rape survivors.
The example you’re using doesn’t seem to pertain to the discussion, as yes, saying “[group] feels [sentiment]” does apply to you, if you feel that sentiment.
And I believe, to use your phrase, “the asshole is there” throughout the text at pretty much every turn — when I found what he was saying to be language that wasn’t blaming and loaded, I pointed that out the same way I pointed out the language I found problematic.
To be fair, you did link an exasperated, over-reaction that your mom did to the phrase “some people”. And then you caps locked it. And used the caps as a reoccurring theme throughout the post. Which makes it easy to assume that you front-loaded an entire interpretation based on the emotional connection of a person you imply is over-reacting.
Here’s the thing of it. I went through and reread the PA post, out loud, the post, emphasizing “some people” and the other quotes you caps locked intentionally using different emotional inflection. And you know what? It doesn’t come off *nearly* as bad as when you charge it with that emotional connection that you invoke in the 3rd paragraph of the post. It still comes off as somewhat antagonistic, but it’s only when you use negative, exasperated emphasis that the post lines up with your interpretation.
So who really knows *what* his tone was? Neither of us do. Nobody does actually except for the author, because text and the internet is a crappy place to explain nuanced and complicated emotions and feelings. That’s the whole of it.
Which is what makes this entire thing even more frustrating. Because we see what we want to see, and inject emotion into what we read, it’s easy to get set up on a rage cycle or an indignation cycle. Which is what I suspect here. As f*ckheads troll the crap out of you and other idiots try to inflame you, it isolates you emotionally. I suspect the same thing is happening on the other side of the fence. Some of the articles and original objections do have the ability to be read as offensive (I found my hackles stiffening more than once at them), and it’s easy to isolate yourself emotionally and get into a feedback loop of negativity. And you have to admit, this entire subject is charged with a lot of negative emotions by it’s very nature.
When talking about triggers, it’s interesting that the only sensitivity culturally that the… what do I call it? anti-rape culture movement calls for, loudly, is concerning rape. It’s almost an axiom, that’s what they’re concerned with, that’s what they’ll talk about, but the climate quickly becomes noneducational. It’s too easy to tune out what potentially blurs the line between passionate and hostile. Tying it to PTSD from war, drugs, abuse, whatever, as you did, *is* educational, because it puts it into context that increases understanding.
But it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. If we have a rape culture, we also have a war culture, an abuse culture, a drug culture, and a whole litany of other “cultures” that normalize and justify self-destructive and antisocial behavior. It might be easier to describe such an environment as a “predatory” culture, and focus on that as an avenue of education. You can break it down into rape and war and all the other horrible things humans do to each other once you’ve gotten the person on board. Because frankly rape culture discussions generally devolve into a cheering game, where one side eggs themselves on, and contrarians come up with the most insulting, sadistic sh*t to get a rise out of the other side. I have never had a conversation with anyone really over specifically rape culture that didn’t devolve into being insulted and somehow lumped in with rapists and apologists after the first few exchanges. Many of the conversations start out as openly hostile towards me. And I’ll tell you, even the most open minded person turns off after a bit of that. It doesn’t help the argument at all, and in fact hurts it.
I don’t have much of a solution. You won’t get more of an apology out of PA, and you know this. You probably shouldn’t post drunken, sleep deprived rants that are emotionally front-loaded. Anonymous people are scumbags, and will be as long as they’re anonymous (and sometimes, even when they’re no longer anonymous). I’m truly, deeply sorry you’ve gotten harassed. I’m truly, deeply sorry and embarrassed that lots of people involved in this have gotten harassed. Not much is left to be learned, as soon as the emotions hit 11 on the dial lessons were burned away by and large.
We’re kind of at a no-win scenario at this point. All that’s really left is grandstanding and internet rage, which is depressing in it’s own way.
Glad to see somebody else noticed the exaggerated and demeaning tone that was added to Mike’s response with the inclusion of the comparison to her mother. Because everyone knows the situations are so similar!
I find the whole idea of a shirt saying “dickwolves” as a trigger ludicrous. I don’t like being insensitive, but I’m putting it out there. I get that’s it now associated to the association of a rape experience, but let’s boil it down: it’s a shirt with a picture of a stylised wolf’s dead that says “dickwolves”. If I walk around with a shirt saying “cockleopards” I don’t expect anyone would complain beyond eye-rolling.
I don’t like participating in internet argument crap, but by god this website has gotten me to having my cheek twitch and eyes now compulsively rolling. Put simply, I think I take umbrage to the depth of your umbrage.
So, if all of this isn’t as big, or deserves to be as big, as it indeed it, why do we have so many people who are sexist, cockmongering assholes who seem to be just out to insult other people? Well, simply this; video game people are even worse than the population at large, and the population at large is the population which everyday reminds me that I should just go and kill myself because I’m not like the patriarchial image of whatever the manly mans of man-culture want me to be. There is a relation between this and rape jokes, and internet, and video game people. This should be explored. At least I want to get wake up calls from time to time to not get my hopes up about non-queer people.
It’s amusing that Penny Arcade actually answered your rhetorical question ages ago with John Gabriel’s “Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory”. It’s simple. A normal person plus anonymity plus a large audience equals total fuckwad.
then just do it already goddamn. All videogame people are bad, shirts that say dickwolves are pulled off because of one word on a comic strip. I don’t even READ PA, but I followed a link here, and I can’t believe everyone is making a big deal out of this. Don’t you understand that by making this huge big deal, you’re just going to garner negative attention?
NEWSFLASH: They only want PAX to be a comfortable place (as opposed to the comic) because they want your money and don’t want to get sued to shit. I’m surprised nobody has noticed this yet.
Also, quick question: how can you call yourself a feminist if you’re willing to post nudes of yourself and be in a burlesque show? Both cater to men and objectify women.
Yeah, don’t you know women should be ashamed of their bodies and their sexuality?
By saying that a woman not objectifying herself automatically means she’s ashamed of herself, you’re perpetuating true misandry. Either she has to slut herself out for men or she’s a prude? Now THAT is sexism.
Hey, nice strawman you got there. It’d sure be a shame if something were to…happen to it.
You say this word strawman, I don’t think you know what it means.
Actually, I do!
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
So when I mocked you for implying that she was being a hypocrite for being a feminist while posting nudes of herself and doing burlesque shows(of course, I was being facetious, but I suppose understanding that would require actual reading comprehension), rather than responding to that, you claimed that I was saying women could only be sluts or prudes, and argued against your misrepresentation of my position rather than my actual position.
Seems like a pretty textbook strawman, to me.
So you’re saying that a good example of a strawman would be “Yeah, don’t you know women should be ashamed of their bodies and their sexuality?”
Yes, yes you are. And it is.
He’s not misrepresented your position, he’s backed up his own without explanation since you’ve chosen not to challenge the idea that burlesque objectifies women.
Unless, of course, you mean that “being ashamed of your body” doesn’t automatically mean you’re a prude, which, frankly, is arguing semantics and that would be stupid.
Either way, your argument is a mess.
How exactly did he “back up his own argument”? His original argument was that KB couldn’t be a feminist and post nudes and perform in burlesque shows. When I mocked his position, he attributed views to me which I never stated, and accused me of being sexist. How is that not a strawman?
Also, apparently you missed the part below where I actually DID challenge the idea that burlesque objectifies women.
Of course, looking at some of your other comments, I get the feeling that reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit.
No, you’ve literally taken the idea that burlesque conflicts with feminism as an argument that requires women not in burlesque to be ashamed of themselves.
I’m not sure where you find a problem with my reading comprehension, it looks to me like you don’t comprehend what you’re writing.
When exactly did I say that women who don’t perform in burlesque shows should be ashamed of themselves? I’d like to see it for myself, because I sure as hell don’t remember saying that.
Oh, and since the original commenter seems to have disappeared, perhaps you can clear something up for me: how exactly does burlesque conflict with feminism?
Well, to the original post criticising burlesque, you responded “Yeah, don’t you know women should be ashamed of their bodies and their sexuality?”
Which is blatantly sarcastically agreeing with the post you replied to.
You’re literally saying “no to burlesque=yes to shame” and later accusing the poster of a strawman when they call you out on it.
On the note of defending the whole “feminists can’t do burlesque thing,” I don’t think there’s any reason to defend that point, I’m only really interested in your idea of strawman perpetrations in this part of the discussion.
Feel free to mark that one down as “No, feminism does not preclude burlesque”.
Now, if you want to have an actual discussion, exactly how does posting nude photos and appearing in burlesque shows conflict with feminism? I know many women who consider burlesque shows, nude modeling, et al empowering.
Just to back up Theodore Eddy, I don’t think I’ve ever done anything that I’ve found more empowering than burlesque. I’m a woman and a feminist, by the way, and most of the women I know who do burlesque are feminists too. Hell, most of the men I know who are in any way involved with burlesque are definitely feminists.
[Note from Courtney: This commenter has been banned from the site, due to listing a cruelty porn site as his author URL. I'm sorry I didn't catch it sooner.]
PTSD does NOT mean that something bad happened to you at some point in your life.
It’s a diagnosed condition. A notoriously hard condition to diagnose. Ms. Bits is lying through her teeth, and quite frankly it’s offensive to the community of actual sufferers of PTSD out there.
Could you please take down this blog post or prove your claims of having PTSD? Hypochondriac much? :3
Seriously people NOBODY CLICK THE LINK IN HIS NAME because it is TRIGGERY AS ALL FUCK.
And also how dare you try to assume things about whether or not her condition has been diagnosed.
I don’t normally read Penny Arcade. I don’t normally read this blog either. This situation was passed along to me, and after seeing all of this, I have to say.
Fuck you.
A webcomic made a joke that makes use of rape. And you know what? THAT HAPPENS. PEOPLE MAKE JOKES ABOUT THINGS THAT AREN’T FUNNY WHEN THEY ACTUALLY HAPPEN TO REAL, LIVING PEOPLE. They do it for fucking everything. Rape, violence, wives committing spouse abuse on husbands, torture. This is life. This is human existence. We even make fun of the terrifying prospect of our own deaths.
I don’t give a fuck that you seem to think crusading against one social evil being taken as a joke means you don’t need to crusade against the others, it’s still hypocritical that you can be so opposed to one and not all the others. Where’s the outrage over people laughing about jokes like Bill Clinton getting beat up by Hilary? Why aren’t you pissed off about that to the point where you want it magically removed from social awareness, a suggestion I’ll get to in a bit?
I’ve seen suggestions that you’re lying about being raped. I can see how that could be the case after many of your posts, and argue with them, but I’m going to assume you did get raped the way you said and do something that’s a big mistake for arguments like these, I’m pulling in personal experience.
I’m a guy. I was nearly choked to death in high school, because I made a joke against a jock. I say nearly because as you can see, I’m still alive. That event put me into a seizure where I felt the most painful experience I will ever feel. It felt like my soul was ripping out of my body and I was struggling to hold onto it for all I could. I didn’t know who I was, where I was, what happened to me, why it was happening, everything other than that the experience was frighteningly cut off from my awareness of self and circumstance. And it felt like an eternity. It felt like I was in Hell and it would never end. I came out of it and what I got out of it was, aside from support from very immediate family, jokes. The jock’s coach tried to blackmail my ability to be on sports teams in case we wanted to sue, which we didn’t, but it says a hell of a lot about his estimated value in me. At the same time, the whole incident was, outright and I’m not exaggerating, a joke to the jock and his friends. They openly laughed at and made jokes about something that nearly killed me. I bottled up the feelings that caused, until a few years later when they came out with a girl I knew that made me feel comfortable enough to be able to share that pain with another human being. And you know what I learned from her? Real men aren’t allowed to have trauma and emotional pain. The second you do, women who call themselves your friend will abandon you. My nearly dying was one big joke to a group of jocks, my estimated value as a human being to one coach was deemed lower than one guy getting to play sports, and my finally expressing how that made me feel was considered so unmanly that it made the first person I fully thought of as a friend abandon me.
And in spite of ALL of that, I’m not going to bitch and whine about people making jokes about nearly dying. I’m not crying for the concept of bullying to come to an end or used for laughs by comic strips, movies, shows, comedians, the works. Do you know why? Because there’s a difference between reality and fantasy. Which brings me back to what I was saying before about how you want rape to be something kids in the future don’t know about: that fantasy is never going to happen. Every basic act of violence is ingrained into human psychology. It’s not just society, it’s how humans are from the outset. Rape is a part of life. Murder is a part of life. Bullying, whether school yard or office or some other form, is a part of life. Physical abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, it’s there and it will never go away short of abolishing rights to privacy and putting cameras in every nook and cranny of the world. And even if that were possible, it would STILL happen, because there are some people who will not have their urges deterred by a camera. The best you could possibly ever do is have the word “rape” abolished so that when it happens, people come up with a different word for it that becomes the new word for “rape.”
I’m posting this with a fake E-mail address because I don’t want you to know my E-mail. I don’t want to get some pseudo-heartfelt bullshit from you about the personal experience I posted here when my experience itself isn’t the point. The point is that these things get joked about, it’s part of human nature, it sucks that it happened to you but that doesn’t mean the concept is any more or less worth being joked about than anything else that’s terrible in the real world. Stop being so goddamn uptight and save bitching for cases that actually deserve it. You’re probably logging IP addresses but that doesn’t tell you much that you’d waste time on.
I tried my best to resist but i have to post, the sheer amount of back patting and bias you are exhibiting is immense
You bitch about people perpetuating ‘rape culture’ like its a big issue, like you dont do anything similar
Im willing to bet you own an object (or several) in your life that came from a sweat shop of some kind, im willing to bet you are one of millions maintaining the culture the modern world has of enslaving the poorer parts of the world for its own end, but that means shit compared to rape culture of course!
Regardless of my obsession with this point, there is also your claim that this kind of thing normalises and supports rape and makes it ‘no big deal’
But you probably walk through your day, not considering the homeless on the street as you type on your blog about the evils of rape
You probably dont think of the elderly without enough help lonely in their homes, doomed to die because someone wasnt there to help them
No i imagine you marginalise these issues in preference to your own, so in a way i submit to you, that YOU are just as bad as others in your own way, you act like not considering rape a big deal is a bad thing, and yet i imagine you do the same to thousands of issues OTHER PEOPLE consider a big deal
At the end of the day this is all my assumptions, i could be completely wrong, and i probably am, but i put this here for you to consider the next time you harass another person going about their day, not thinking of the issues you yourself consider a big deal, that person consumed by their own ideals and issues they wish to address and perhaps reconsider before you make your next hate blog
I pity you, on every level it is possible to pity another human being
Your post gave me cancer.
Please find something else to crusade about, like maybe the price of milk or people driving their cars too fast in your vicinity. I don’t believe that you’re *actually* this upset about such a far-fetched and trivial matter as… t-shirts? You’re clearly just out to instigate.
I love how you constantly cite that “Derailing for Dummies” article. You know, that article that is essentially a dismissing whinge against any counter argument so you can excuse yourself of having less than five brain cells. It’s almost as if you’ve got no geniune counter arguement for it.
That’s literally all you’ve been saying for the past couple of days. “Derail this, derail that”.
Your claim of rape is full of holes. You blame the men for not helping you, but had you actually made it look as though you weren’t enjoying it, and maybe even thrown in a little “Help, I’m being raped!”, maybe those guys would have thought “Well hang on, some guy is fucking her and she looks miserable. 1 + 1 = Bitch is getting raped, man, we should do something about it.”
Do not even dare to cite the Bystander Effect, because if that were the case, they would have kept on walking. But no. Like an idiot, you claimed that they made jokes, joined in a little, and cheered on the “rapist”. You didn’t ask for help, you didn’t fight back, you just sat there and took it, hoping they would go away soon. You enabled them to “rape” you. You let them do it to you.
And then you thought “hey, let’s get a “feminist” blog going and pretend I’m fighting for a just cause when all you’re really doing is spouting off my misandric bullshit because I didn’t have the guts to stand up for myself when it mattered and now I have to project my feelings of self-loathing onto all men because I don’t want to face up to a mistake I made.”
See what I just wrote? THAT is a derail. You know, digressing from the actual issue.
de·rail
verb
4. to become derailed; go astray.
Your “derailing” article is nothing more than a dismissal.
dis·miss
–verb (used with object)
5. to put off or away, esp. from consideration; put aside; reject
Maybe you DID over-react and miss the point entirely. Maybe you DID make a generalisation. Maybe you ARE a completely subhuman husk who isn’t capable of growing into a fully fledged human being, who chooses to live in her own, tiny world of hypocrisy and punish herself by constantly telling herself “I’m not wrong, it’s all man’s fault.” You claim to be mature, but you’ve still not outgrown the concept of offense.
Well done, you get a gold star.
It’s interesting to see the fallout of when two belief structures collide.
In any case, despite being a rape victim, neither the comic nor the t-shirt were particularly offensive in my book. Certainly nothing triggered a PTSD-related response. At least for me, context plays very important role in what crosses certain lines what does not. Reading the comic, or hearing one of my cousins say “I totally just raped the other team’s defense in Madden.”, or what have you, doesn’t press my buttons. On the other hand, all rape victim’s experiences, responses, and subsequent therapies (or lack thereof) are different and I don’t mean to marginalize other’s experiences over mine.
If kirbybits had started out by saying as such instead of instantly jumping at the satirical surface of the comic, it might have, at least in my opinion, formed a better basis for argument. Unfortunately, this whole fiasco seems to have spiraled out of control. Now it just seems to have devolved in to name calling and overanalyzing; neither of which really attract supporters to either camp. In effect, it just seems polarize the issue further, and those in the middle just lose interest.
This just comes full circle back to: It’s interesting to see the fallout of when two belief structures collide.
Oh and this is some amazing schadenfruedian bullshit that puts you on the same detestable level of those you are against.
http://twitter.com/kirbybits/status/31476231505453056
Yes, let’s all pity the poor, oppressed white guys.
Was it necessary to mention they are white? Sounds a little racist to me.
Yeah, I’m totally racist against white people. Every time I look in the mirror, I think, “Look at that cracker! I sure hate that guy.”
Uh, then why did you mention their skin color? What is “Yes, let’s all pity the poor, oppressed white guys.” supposed to mean?
Obviously you’ve never heard of ‘sarcasm’.
But hey, I’ve got 5 minutes, I’ll explain my joke to you.
In the post above, Grape Culture was decrying the fact that KB was mocking Gabe’s whiny explanation of why they pulled the shirt, thus implying that we should have some sympathy for him.
My joke played on the fact that throughout history, white males have been the oppressors, not the oppressees, and therefore, the idea that we should pity Gabe, or that, as a white male in America, his rights were somehow being encroached upon because someone took offense to something he created is inherently ridiculous, and therefore, humorous.
Hope that helps.
“My joke played on the fact that throughout history, white males have been the oppressors, not the oppressees”
Everyone in the gulags, most of the slaves ever employed in Europe and almost all of pre-revolution France would like a word with you. Skin colour is not relevant to anything here.
Are you fucking kidding me, dude. Are you fucking joking?
Look, this whole fiasco exploded because of Mike and Jerry’s willful ignorance of a CURRENT, ON-GOING ISSUE.
Those white slaves employed in Europe hundreds of years are NOT RELEVANT to the discussion of modern racism because ALL WHITE PEOPLE IN EUROPE HAVE MORE SOCIAL POWER THAN NON-WHITE PEOPLE. The same is NOT true for African slaves in colonial and early America because today BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE STILL OPPRESSED.
No, this discussion is not about racism, but in the same way white people still have the power and the privilege INTERNATIONALLY, so do MEN.
Mike is a white, cisgendered straight male – we can also presume he hasn’t been raped at any point of his life, unlike the 1/4 of all women who are. Anyone who cries for him being ~oppressed~ by the ~evil feminists and rape survivors~ who were upset by the comic is a COMPLETE IDIOT because he has NOTHING to bitch about as far as “misandry” is concerned here.
Thanks for making my point for me.
Yeah, his being white is irrelevant and some dickwad just made a racial slur.
Because the creators of PA are white that means everyone should be as horrible as possible to them because each race is a team and that makes every white person personally accountable for everything a white person has done to a non-white person, right asshole?
Because if you disagree with that I fail to see how this “let’s point out they’re white as part of a reason to be unsympathetic toward them, since white people oppress and are never oppressed” thing makes any sense at all.
Ooh, the reverse racism card. Didn’t think I’d see that one played here.
Oh, and nice ad hominem. You pick that up from Fox News?
There’s no such thing as reverse racism.
Also, please point out the ad hominem, unless you jsut mean that every insult ever is ad hominem, which is wrong.
actually, in a way it is. People who are white, cissexual (meaning not trans), heterosexual, without any disabilities, wealthy (as PA has made them), and so on may not automatically have happy perfect lives of utter joy – in fact, they can still be miserable fucks for many reasons – but they get the privilege of living lives of the least resistance. Men also belong in that privilege category. Compared to, say…a black disabled transgendered lesbian who can’t work and has to live off of disability – she would have to deal with many, many more problems on a daily basis than someone who isn’t underprivileged like she. For example, I’m white, cisgendered, straight, and able-bodied: I’ll never be watched like a hawk when I go into a store because my skin color may make someone think I’m there to rob them, I’ll never have people question my gender identity due to my genitalia, I’ll never have my relationships with other people questioned or devalued because I’m attracted to the opposite sex, and I’ll never be undervalued as a person because I don’t need special assistance to get places. And those are very very minor examples.
But explaining privilege systems is a lot of work and frankly off-topic. You can educate yourself on it if you are interested.
You didnt explain WHY it was necessary. You just said that it was, then went on to explain privilege systems to me. So why was the comment necessary?
I don’t think melp has any responsibility to explain my comments. I can handle that myself, thanks!
For someone who doesn’t, he sure tried to.
Oh Christ did you even read what I wrote.
Oh fuck it, just read what Theodore said above.
My particular source of amusement about this entire subject is that Dickwolves perpetuate rape culture, but a tweet linking the Whitest Kids U Know sketch about the Grapist and having a laugh at it is perfectly fine.
http://twitter.com/kirbybits/status/31470117111988224
lol wut?
The reason she linked that is because the guy who came up with the commercial is like HDU COMPARE THE GRAPIST TO A RAPIST, not realizing how dangerously similar the two are. Damn near everyone here who has been attempting to argue against KB has been doing pretty much this.
Okay, I have an AWFUL lot I could say about this whole… thing. The comic, the response, the shirt, the response, the removal, the response, the big mess. Nobody is happy right now. Penny Arcade and its fans are unhappy for the shirt being gone, those who were against the shirt are unhappy that the original sentiment remains even if the shirt does not. Both sides feel that the other side is not only in the wrong, but is the CAUSE of the things they don’t like about the situation.
I’ve followed the whole deal pretty closely for a while now for a few reasons I don’t need to go into. Let’s just go with “when a whole lot of people make a big deal out of an issue, I tend to figure it’s probably worth investigating”.
I could make comments about what you’ve done correctly, and get everyone in favor of the shirt mad at me. I could make comments about the nature of humour and why the comic truly is funny for some people and not for other people (humour being subjective this should be self explanatory) but that might upset you. It might cause you to think I’m suggesting something I’m not suggesting. I’m not here to suggest anything that isn’t absolutely true. It is a FACT that the comic was humourous (here’s the key part) to some people. It is a FACT that the comic was offensive… to some people.
This sort of issue is prickly enough that it’s dangerous to venture outside of absolute facts, because then the sides start suggesting you’re implying things you didn’t want to imply. I’m not implying that the dickwolves are in the right, and I’m not implying that you are in the right.
Long, hopefully pacifying preface out of the way, let’s get to what I came here to say. You aren’t going to like it, but hopefully you’ll read through the whole thing and take some time to think about it. There are many unpopular ideas, and oftentimes they turn out to be right. The SUN is the center of the solar system? PREPOSTEROUS! And yet, it is true. This is a powerful, yet dangerous thing. This concept of an unpopular idea being the real truth. People who believe something very strongly and have much of the world disregarding their beliefs tend to take past examples of this (like the center of the solar system) and use it to further reinforce their idea that they are correct and eventually the world will see. This is fine when they are right. Sometimes, however, people will believe an idea very strongly and construct an elaborate world scenario wherein not only are they right but in fact the reason most of the world believes otherwise is because they have been conditioned to believe the lies.
This type of mindset is the root of conspiracy theories. People who believe that the world is ruled by lizard-like aliens believe it is all a government cover up and that the reason people think otherwise is because the government programmed them to do so. When they argue with such a person about this subject, they may take to saying “of COURSE you don’t believe me – they’ve programmed you not to!” or other similar things. This just further reinforces the idea that the believer is insane and not to be listened to.
People who believe that a rape culture exists appear (to those who do NOT believe so) to be this same sort of insane person. A: “I believe in rape culture” B: “I do not” A: “Of course you don’t, you were raised in it”.
I am not here to say you are insane or wrong. I am just here to tell you, and any other people who have viewpoints and argument methods similar to yours, that this is a fundamental flaw in the way you conduct yourselves. As you have defined the rape culture and as you try to explain it, you only cause those who do not believe you are correct to feel that you are completely insane. Please read this and please understand. The ideas, definitions, and methods you are using now will NEVER work. The type of case you are presenting to the unbelieving public has been completely ineffective in ALL past uses, and every single attempt at presenting a similar case pushes the likelihood of the next one succeeding even closer to zero. The chance that you can break through to the people you are talking to is orders of magnitude lower than the chance of anyone convincing the American public at large that Obama is secretly a Muslim terrorist.
Whether that’s true or not is irrelevant. Whether YOU ARE RIGHT OR NOT is irrelevant. The way your belief is defined and the method with which it is presented can not succeed. With every post you make in the same style, with every staunch defense of your past statements, you dig yourself deeper.
I don’t know if you’re right. I don’t THINK you are, but I know that as long as you continue to do as you do now the amount of intelligent discussion about the subject and the amount of respect for it will only dive lower and lower and I don’t want to see that happen because what if you are right?
If I am helping to perpetuate societal acceptance of rape when I laugh at a rape centric joke (which I do with somewhat alarming regularity) then I feel awful about that and the LAST thing I want to do is to cause that truth to stay forever buried under mountains of ignorance and disrespect by not allowing intelligent discussion of the topic. So please, for the sake of the possibility of reducing the prevalence or acceptance of rape, I ask that you reconsider your methods.
I like you. I hope the meaning of your post is taken in the same direction as its intention.
I also like “I’m not implying that the dickwolves are in the right, and I’m not implying that you are in the right,” because it implies that everyone who argues against kirbybits’ side here should be referred to as dickwolves.
You’ve been playing too much Moonbase Alpha.
“To anyone “reasonable.” Guess who gets to play Judge and Jury of Whether Your Behavior is Reasonable! Good ol’ Mike.”
Oh boy. I know it’s a bit mean to dump such a long post on you all and then add something else, but when I forgot this gem, I had to go back for it; it’s priceless.
Of course Mike decides for himself who’s reasonable. Who else is going to decide for him? You? I hope you’ll forgive him for not making you the arbiter of his opinions of rationality when your reactions to his writings currently give the impression that the sentence “My wife just gave birth,” from his keyboard really means “My wife suddenly stopped eating, began to gasp, choke, gurgle, as she flailed around on the table, shrieking as a spiny creature erupted from her chest in a spray of gore and cacophony of terror. My hell-spawn scuttled away in search of flesh, any flesh, YOURS.”
Possible slight exaggeration but I think we see why he took the conservative choice of making opinion decisions for himself in this case.
Lozenge, higher up in the thread I said that you were really dumb for real. That was an ad hominem attack, and as such I both regret it and don’t know that it’ll make it through moderation.
I do not know you and it would be ridiculous for me to try to judge whether or not you are stupid. What I should have said, obviously, is that everything you have *said in this comments section* is really, really stupid.
I’d love to hear an answer to any of them.
I like how everyone commenting on this blog actually believes that winning arguments on some raped-by-fifteen-men-fate-of-two-worlds woman’s blog gives them “points” and confirms their status as an intellectual.
I personally don’t agree with kirbybits, but I didn’t have any problems with how this all turned out until it started getting so much undeserved attention. I’ll definitely praise kirbybits for turning all of this publicity into a possible means of raising money to support a “good” cause with her arguably hypocritical shirts. However, reading pages of “I’M SMARTER THAN YOU ARGUING 101 SPEECH AND DEBATE HERE IS A WEBSITE (written by another intellectual btw) WITH THE MOST COMMON METHODS OF FORMING A REBUTTAL FILLED WITH FALLACIES CHECKMATE” is pretty disgusting and anger-inspiring.
I can’t wait until the same four or five people pick every single word that I’ve typed out apart and then link me to which fallacies I’ve used.
Since an early set of responses to this post revolved around some people claiming that some actual points had been made by the pro-dickwolf agenda and ignored by Kirby Bits, and those claims being dismissed with a bunch of bleating about some other comments that were derailing and claiming ignorance, I reproduce here a fairly large passage of text that remains relevant:
______________
“There seems to be a little bit of a gap between you and those who don’t see anything wrong with the whole dickwolf thing. Let me break it down a little further than Penny Arcade’s strip attempted to, because it obviously didn’t address where you weren’t seeing eye to eye with them.
So let me get this straight: the big problem here for you is the proposition “These references to dickwolves contribute to rape culture, ie making rape seem like less of a big deal.”
There are two sticking points with this:
1: The original strip (which was apparently so abhorrent) used rape by dickwolves to amplify the severity of the situation. This ONLY works if the reader sees this as an utterly horrible thing; exactly the opposite of reducing our feelings against rape, it uses these feelings to attack the morality of leaving someone in such a situation.
Therefore everyone who didn’t see a reason to complain about the strip has been left mercifully clean of the sin you accuse the strip of doing.
2: When you complain about a shirt about dickwolves doing the same thing, trivialising rape, and yet produce a shirt of dickwolves, indirectly referring to the act of rape by dickwolves and with little cartoon crosses for eyes, it’s A-OK because it’s “survivor humor”. When does it stop being a filthy personal slight and start being a good old joke we can all appreciate? If a rape victim wore PA’s Dickwolves shirt, would that be OK, is it only OK when you say it?
In short, why does this joke belong to you, referring to dickwolves as a representative of rape, where someone else using the sheer idea of a wolf largely made of dicks (trust me, it’s a big part of the original strip’s humor), dissociated from rape, brings out pitchforks?
Do you really feel such a strong need to control how someone else’s intellectual property is used, to the point of using it yourself in the very context that you claim offends you?
in light of the things I’ve discussed in this post you’ve come across as a blinkered, selfish, knee-jerk reactionary whose only real concern is that someone used the word “rape” without first banishing all happiness from their lives forever.”
______________
With this in mind, it’s not hard to see why they started making fun of you. First of all, they’re satirists. It’s what they do. Second, you’re the creator of all the trouble. Everything you object to you object to because you refuse to see what is there, instead transmogrifying it all in your mind into something you like to complain about; you’ve continued this trend into this blog post.
Suddenly, a piece of news on the Penny Arcade article specifically explaining the situation to those who were not offended by dickwolves SUDDENLY becomes a personal attack because its wording clearly doesn’t speak to you personally. It speaks to them.
You clearly don’t know why this is, but it’s not exactly rocket-brain-dentistry. Think about it. Why would you need anything explained? You already know why that merchandise was pulled, and you’ve written a blog post on it. Are you honestly so self-centred that every communiqué on the matter must be written as a personal love letter to you, even when it’s really everyone else who needs the information?
Are you so shocked that, in light of these points and others I have made, previously ignored in favour of long tracts about derailing (ahaha), it really seems to everyone outside your clique that you’ve bullied PA into submitting some work they thought was good as a result to your own prejudices and double-standards?
So terrifying that he, when just letting you have your way, doesn’t pretend to like it? He can’t just change his actions and pussyfoot around you, apparently, he also has to change his entire viewpoint overnight and also publicly announce you to be the wonderful harbinger of enlightenment?
Now perhaps you deserve a little benefit of the doubt, perhaps you weren’t aware that the new “offensive” post was triggered largely by some messages sent to the PA guys by the very people he addresses, but seriously, that shouldn’t be the point.
You’ve taken a moment when he indirectly talks about you to a specific set of people and called it another attack. You seem to see them everywhere.
Actually, Gabe and Tycho started the mocking well before any potential for hypocrisy in who gets to make dickwolves shirts happened, just to make sure we are clear on that point.
“You already know why that merchandise was pulled, and you’ve written a blog post on it.”
Actually there is any number of reasons; it’s why I was more hesitant than some to out and out thank the PA guys, when there could be more going on than simply what I hoped for; what Kirby hoped for. That being: Regret at the original joke and acknowledging it was a problem. The fact that their explanation meant they Still Did Not Get It and in fact despite their removal of the shirt they’re personally wearing one to the con? Yeah, that’s disappointing.
As for the question over who gets to make a dickwolf shirt, well, uh. You know how if a caucasian person drops an n-bomb in front of an african-american, they tend not to like that, and yet there is a culture among african-americans to say that same word to each other? That’s called ‘taking it back’. I do not want to speak for actual rape survivors but I dare say that is part of why there is a difference.
You are seriously comparing something as stupid as a dickwolf to a racial slur? Something that only exists to hurt a group of people, and you think it is the same as a wolf with penises for limbs. Wow.
While comparing different forms of oppression is generally not a good idea, I can see why moose chose to do that: it’s hard to explain it without comparing it to something better understood.
A wolf made of penises has, thus far, only existed to hurt people as well. Perhaps they’ll make a comic showing dickwolves as upstanding citizens to counteract the earlier comic, but I would hope at this point PA will drop it and this issue will die quickly.
So it’s about all we know of their actions being negative, that we can’t enjoy the concept of what is, physically, a ridiculous animal? So, is animal mauling and people being burned alive funny, or are shirts with mean-looking dragons on banned too?
Before you go into some sort of “Rape is a horrible crime that robs women of their womanhood,” response, I’d like to agree with you, but preemptively point you in the direction of that lady who got her face ripped off by a chimp. A good example of how animal mauling can also be utterly dreadful.
I’m also pretty disappointed at the problem with the Fruit Fucker being highlighted as totally OK in the shadow of all this. So a character that all but says “Hello, I am a rapist for fruit. Enjoy watching me exhibit all pop-culture’s ideas of rapist behaviour, only with an inanimate object, so it’s OK, get comfy with all this,” doesn’t lessen our concern about rape at all, but a sympathetic character saying “Please, save me, among the atrocities that are forced on me are rape,” is RAPE CULTURE RAPE CULTURE.
Cool.
“So a character that all but says “Hello, I am a rapist for fruit. Enjoy watching me exhibit all pop-culture’s ideas of rapist behaviour, only with an inanimate object, so it’s OK, get comfy with all this,” doesn’t lessen our concern about rape at all, but a sympathetic character saying “Please, save me, among the atrocities that are forced on me are rape,” is RAPE CULTURE RAPE CULTURE.”
This kind of logic is holding up the intent of an attacker as equal with the consent of the attacked. They aren’t equal. Rape is not identified by the rapist – if the power to identify whether or not something was rape lay in determining the intent of the rapist, then all the rapist has to do is say, “Hey, I didn’t *mean* to rape that person.” Rape is sex without consent – the person who didn’t consent is the one with the power to identify what happened to them as rape.
Added: So no, a machine (or a person, for that matter) who has sex with fruit isn’t a rapist. Fruit isn’t sapient.
Well, the character didnt say it, the creator did.
Is that seriously relevant?
It is. Shes saying that the opinion is irrelevant because a rapist cannot define rape. A creation only says what its creator tells it to. And in this case, the creator has said that the fruit fucker is a rapist. Shes choosing to ignore this fact.
So in essence, an anthropomorphic juicer rapist is ok, and a wolf rapist is not.
I’ve created a character. It’s a man named Steve. Steve is 2’3″ tall.
Steve is a very very tall person.
DO NOT TRY TO TELL ME OTHERWISE, IT IS MY CREATION.
Jeez, I’m not talking about the comparitive morality of raping a piece of fruit to raping a person, I’m talking about your careful selection of what trivialises rape.
Actually, I wasn’t talking about the hypocrisy as a reason for the mockery, the reason for the mockery is summed up in the two reason I gave in the paragraph about why they mocked her. Both are given there as the mockery-related fruit of the passage between the underscores; they are conclusions from that passage from which the mockery naturally follows.
Since the whole problem with this dickwolf thing has been repeatedly attributed to contributing to rape culture, as I mentioned above, ‘taking it back’ is not a valid excuse. When I was a kid, the N-word was just about the worst thing I could ever hear, and it made me feel a bit dirty when I heard it. After a few times hearing it from black standup comedians, in music and in films, holee shit, I’m not really bothered any more. That’s what taking back does. Since the point of offense here is exactly the idea that people may become less bothered bothered about rape, ‘taking back’ in this case is counterproductive, and kind of exposes your blasé attitude towards it as a significant hypocrisy.
Additionally, it’s still not contributing to rape culture in the first place so there’s nothing to take back.
I’m getting the impression you didn’t read a word I wrote.
Ho-hum.
Thank you for typing out what everyone else was too lazy to type out. You deserve a medal.
Lady, could you please just back up and think what you’re doing here.
You’re on the internet protecting rape victims from imaginary dickwolves. Do something more productive with your life. Ride that bike more.
I had a big long comment planned out, but upon reviewing your inability to reciprocate even a little the empathy you feel you’re entitled to, I thought the whole thing rather baseless.
So here’s my advice to you: chill the fuck out, learn some civility, and work on not sounding so bloody whiny. I guarantee you it’ll do wonders for not only your own reputation, but for the reputation of your fellow self-entitled and overly-sensitive group of like-minded folk.
You wonder why so many people diminish the consequences of rape? Of feminists? People like you. And I know you’ll write this reply off, but that’s okay. Perhaps if enough people tell you this, the fact will sink into your mind and every time you go to post one of your long, self-important diatribes of meandering bullshit you’ll remember it, and when you do you’ll think, “This is completely asinine and childish. Perhaps I should grow up, move on, and stop pretending that everyone and their mother owes me their unending sympathy!”
That was still longer than what I had planned. I apologise.
Just a question here, how did this all get blown way the hell out of proportion?
Isn’t this truly the opinion and problems of a small, albeit, very vocal community of victims? Shouldn’t these people be seeking counseling rather than attacking people who they believe are further assaulting them? I understand rape is one of the most horrific things one person can do to another, I wouldn’t De-value a crime like this. And on the discussion of “Rape triggers” [Quotes are because I don't know the exact definition] If these things can suddenly and violently rip you from the realm of reality and place you back in the middle of this horrific event, why would you continually seek these things out, stress yourself over them, and look at them, and deal with them, on a daily basis? In all honesty I could care less about this blogger in particular , reason being that in evidence of her blog and arguments against PA she obviously doesn’t mind reliving this event for the interest of explaining it to others I’m more concerned about the women who DON’T speak up about their rape,the ones who don’t feel the need to sensationalize their rape, or won’t speak about it. Bottling your feelings about what happened is far more destructive than repeatedly ranting to a small group of supporters, getting a shirt removed from a store, then complaining about the explanation given. Oh, and I hope Kirby-whatever could take a hint from this post, it’s far effective to communicate your ideas without swearing incessantly, or feeling the need to attack people.
“Shouldn’t these people be seeking counseling rather than attacking people who they believe are further assaulting them?”
Posting something on a blog is not an attack. Telling these people to go into counselling is just so condescending I don’t even.
“Bottling your feelings about what happened is far more destructive than repeatedly ranting to a small group of supporters, getting a shirt removed from a store, then complaining about the explanation given.”
She didn’t get it removed from the store! Remember? It was all those emails, not ranting on blogs. And if someone wants to rant to a small group of supporters, who the fuck cares? Why do you have to come here to tell them they are wrong?
“Oh, and I hope Kirby-whatever could take a hint from this post, it’s far effective to communicate your ideas without swearing incessantly, or feeling the need to attack people.”
See: Tone Argument.
This thing has been blown entirely out of proportion. Rape is a terrible thing, and I know that the vast majority of people here, on the internet, and in the world know and believe that. I can’t claim to be educated on triggers for PTSD victims, so I won’t make enveloping statements. Simply that it is my personal opinion that using rape to highlight the seriousness of a prisoner’s plight makes the indifference of the hero all the funnier, and that the dickwolves shirt should not have been taken down.
Surely it is a person’s choice as to whether they buy a shirt? And if a rape victim with PTSD happens to be walking around and views a shirt with
‘DICKWOLVES’ on it and then manages to make the connection to Penny Arcade (exempting a very large portion of rape victims, I might add) and THEN suffers a trigger or relapse or whatever then they are perfectly justified in taking the issue to the wearer of said shirt. But this whole campaign to have the shirt taken down is a huge overreaction given the simplicity of the design and the context it is in.
Quite tired, so I’m not sure if this is all making sense, but the folks over at PA are good people, by my standards at least (I know that I haven’t donated millions to charity, so they have me and probably everyone here beat). In no way have they deserved the backlash that has occurred.
” I can’t claim to be educated on triggers for PTSD victims, so I won’t make enveloping statements.”
It is sad that this is a refreshing change to the norm in this and the two other threads.
The context that the shirt was in was a rape joke, and the fact that it IS triggering, which PA had been made aware of and chose to continue to mock rather than take into account before they profiteered from rape culture. Whether or not some people won’t get the reference, there are others who will and PA knew that BEFORE THEY MADE THE SHIRT.
“the folks over at PA are good people, by my standards at least (I know that I haven’t donated millions to charity, so they have me and probably everyone here beat)”
An asshole who donates to charity is still an asshole. They are not exempt from critique because of the good they’ve done in other areas. Kirbybits herself has applauded them for the inclusive things they have done, including the banning of booth babes at PAX.
Kirby,
I just want to say how sorry I am that people have been attacking you this way, and that you have been volunteered as a sort “fall-guy” for so many others who feel similarly, and therefore have been targeted. NOBODY deserves to be treated like that. Not many people are nearly as courageous and strong as you have been (and have unfortunately needed to be). I just want to send you a big virtual hug.
Thank you.
P.S. I have looked up to Gabe and Tycho for years. Seeing Gabe react this way has been a crushing disappointment. Tycho has been pretty quiet, so I’ll give him some sort of benefit of the doubt, and fantasize that he secretly disagrees with Gabe but does not know how to articulate it (I can only take one heartbreak at a time, anyway).
There’s so much wrong with the actual substance of this article that I could spend all night refuting it but I can’t get over the feeling it would be more or less an immense waste of time. Therefore, I will question only this:
“You know who wants to never say the word, “rape” again? Me.”
“I want kids to some day be like, “people used to do what?!” when they learn about rape. In history class. ”
If you never want to hear rape again why is it being talked about in your hypothetical utopia where it is no longer an issue?
hey, welp? You reading this?
This is a good example of a straw man.
Or is it a red herring?
I’d call it elaborating on a topic. It’s not any fallacy.
Interesting. How was me responding on your “Gabe is a character!” comment up above a straw man, then, when this guy is doing the same thing by ignoring the overall message to respond to a miniscule comment any different? What exactly is the difference that makes this “elaboration” and the above…not?
Just wondering.
“I’d call it elaborating on a topic. It’s not any fallacy.”
Oh really.
“I want kids to some day be like, “people used to do what?!” when they learn about rape. In history class. ”
Here, Kirbybits says that in the future she wants rape to be an archaic word; one that does not ever need to be used or acknowledged. That this is not the world we live in today, but it is a dream she hopes for in the future.
“If you never want to hear rape again why is it being talked about in your hypothetical utopia where it is no longer an issue?”
Here, LH twists kirby’s original line around to mean that obviously you are a hypocrite if you want nobody to talk about rape in the future when here you are talking about it in the present, despite the fact that the two can be compatible.
Twisting an argument to suit your needs and making it easier to counterargument/ridicule. THAT is a Straw Man Argument.
I have a question for the owner of this blog.
You have a problem with the concept of “Dickwolves” that rape if you are unlucky enough to come across a mythical wolf creature made of dicks, and this joke is unacceptable to you.
However, being that you are long time PA fans, you are “ok” with the idea of the “Fruit Fucker”, a mechanical juicer that rapes and deflowers fruit, leaving it a Florentine mess.
explain this duplicity and hypocrisy to me please, and try to make me believe this isn’t just more fem-nazi bullshit shoved down everyone’s throats.
This has been argued into the ground. To summarize:
Fruit Fucker fucks inanimate objects – fruit.
Dickwolves rape PEOPLE.
There is no intelligent or worthwhile comparison to be drawn here. There is no hypocrisy. You cannot “rape” an object.
sidenote: I always disliked fruit fucker, but never found it worth complaining. I am not KB, though.
Yeah but a juicer is an inanimate object as well. In the context of a cartoon though, everything is free game. They have given sentience to normally inanimate objects. He brings up a good point, shame that you want to refute it instead of addressing its relevance.
Er…did you mean ignore instead of refute?
I’m intentionally refuting his “good point” because it sucks. Shame on me for arguing that? i don’t even
And if the fruit was portrayed as being sentient and unwilling to submit to the fruit fucker’s imperative, guess what? We’d be complaining about that too.
The creator himself stated that the fruitfucker IS a rapist. You are going to ignore that fact just because youve never SEEN the rape in question? Then how do you know that the imaginary slave has ever been raped? Or that there really are dickwolves for that matter? You didnt see either of them…..
You’ll forgive me if I less than completely trust the definition of what rape is from the penny arcade guys, given what we’ve seen from them.
No one here has defended FF or declared their undying love for it, so there’s no need to declare hypocrisy where there is none.
Also: it “rapes” THINGS, not people.
Fruit fucker raping and fucking fruit is an allegory for rape and fucking a real thing.
Imagine if you will, the fruit is a helpless victim that has been gagged and cannot speak. That is why the fruit does not object. Just because you refuse to see the correlation does not mean it doesn’t exist. My point stands.
If you argument is that Fruit Fucker cannot “rape” inanimate objects, then your entire argument about Dickwolves raping “people” has gone completely out the window. As you can tell from the comic, the dickwolves were not raping “people”. They are raping NPC’s. Non-playable Characters in a MMO like World of Warcraft.
Therefore I surmise that if we follow “your” philosophy that fucking/raping inanimate objects doesn’t count, than neither does fucking/raping an NPC character made of pixels count either, since the NPC is not a real person and is just as inanimate as a piece of fruit.
Your move.
Like I said, I always found it a little tasteless and uninteresting.
In the end, it’s an object humping other objects. (I don’t remember the fruit being anthropomorphic, but I never paid attention to fruit fucker anyway.) Whether you want to call it rape or not, that’s the main part of it that makes it LESS BAD than dickwolves. Because you can’t rape an object.
The fact that the people in that strip are illustrations does not matter. I used to play WoW and if I had a quest where I had to rape someone or be involved in a rape of an NPC I would be seriously disturbed. (And no, I’m not some oversensitive baby who cries at the drop of a hat.)
FWIW – The most disturbing thing out of this whole situation (I don’t think the dickwolves comic was a big deal, just the way Mike and Jerry chose to respond) was how some of their fans have been behaving. Accusing KB of lying about being raped, threatening to rape her (joke or not, that’s a horrific thing to say to someone, especially a rape survivor), and God only knows what sort of comments she’s been getting on her Facebook and in her email inbox.
You payed attention to Fruit Fucker, yet you claim to have (at one time) been Penny Arcade fans?
Do you all even really “read” this damn comic? You would know after almost 10 years that it’s been out that many of these topics that you are complaining about have already come up as jokes in other strips.
To put it into context, it’s like you went into a Haunted House attraction, and then complained and demanded a refund from the ride operators because you found out the ride was “scary”.
Welll…FUCKING DUH. It’s a Haunted House. What were you expecting?
Same thing for PA. Every line has been crossed one way or another throughout the comic’s history. To act “blind” to it is basically rejecting reality and trying to force feed your own perspective.
The PA crew have made jokes like this before. You knew what you were signing up for when you read the comic. No one forced your hand. No one “Made” you read the comics. “ignoring’ content into order to force your own “context” doesn’t make you right, it makes you a fool.
I didn’t even want a Dickwolves shirt. I thought it looked dumb.
But now seeing that some people are trying to force their views down PA’s throat, I REALLY, REALLY want to buy one in order to spite you all.
…..holy hell, maybe this was all just a publicity stunt to get people to buy shirts…maybe the blog owner is getting a cut…
by the way, fem-nazi is really inappropriate. Godwinning by comparing a woman to a government that caused the deaths of millions of people will not earn you points in any way.
I just calls em as I sees em.
So when did you see KB lead millions of Jews, Gypsies, queer people, etc. to their deaths?
Thus far, the only person she has seriously endangered has been herself.
No, really, that’s not a smart thing to do. If you want to be taken seriously in your disagreement, at least. And anyone who has called Mike and Jerry Nazis at any point would have also been in the wrong. Godwinning is just fail overall.
You acting like Gabe making a comment about ranting on blogs is a personal attack really makes me laugh when that’s what you’re sitting there and doing.
You don’t sound rational or easy to relate to or empathize with.
You are doing absolutely nothing to improve the outlooks of the very people you are antagonizing on a subject that far, far more people need to be far more educated about.
Fucking quit it.
I wish the guys at PA just ignored this entire issue and continued what they’re doing.
If they had never chosen to respond to the criticism of the original Dickwolves comment, this never would have been such a grand problem. So yeah, I agree.
I have a question, why do you feel this is such a big accomplishment and that you must continue beating a deadhorse? The punchline wasn’t the whole “rape” part of the joke, Hell rape and dickwolves are both interchangable to like attack and monkeys and the joke would still be that the character has no obligation to save him once he met his quota.
Now as many have said, PA just had being raped by dickwolves as a horrible fate for the NPC, It’s not like they tried to play rape off as like a slap on the wrist. It’s not like they joked about the Kitty Genovese murder.
I honestly would like to know how them portraying rape as a horrible experience offended you, they certainly aren’t glorifying it.
As for the shirt, it’s just supposed to be a mascot of an animal from the little world in the comic. Hell look up “dog hump” on youtube, you’ll find lots of videos of dogs humping people and other animals, only difference is when they talk about dickwolves in the comic a wolf would be much bigger than a dog so a canine’s humping can be considered rape when done by a larger and stronger wild animal.
I hope you’ll see how ridiculous this is, their jokes are not like they’re endorsing murder, rape, racism, whatever have you. This same guys also have donated tremendous amounts of money to charities and yet because they mention the word rape, you feel that they are scum.
I’m sure they’re good people. You just need to stop.
You got a T-shirt pulled, honestly they could have just not given a fuck and ignored the people who took a joke out of context.
You just asked not to beat a dead horse and then went into another explanation about why rape was not the punchline. And then an explanation about how dickwolves can mean something other than rape. lol.
“You got a T-shirt pulled, honestly they could have just not given a fuck and ignored the people who took a joke out of context.”
No, taking the joke out of context is what you did by trying to say it’s not about rape.
Rape is not the punchline, the joke is how in quests have you save a certain number of people and after that the main character has no sympathy once he has met his quouta no matter how horrible their fate is.
You just seem to dismiss anything that does not support what you believe.
Rather than proving what I said wrong you just go on to say you’re right and I’m wrong. You’re going to tell me that everyone is wrong when they point out the joke is about things in videogames in a videogame webcomic?
Get over yourself, Courtney. You don’t speak for anyone but yourself so stop trying to pretend like you represent some woefully underrepresented underclass of rape victims.
You do not speak for me.
You took Gabe’s use of “some people” to quite an extent in that post.
Is it possible it’s this kind of misunderstanding and/or over-exaggeration of context that’s started this issue in the first place? You have in your Required Reading section a video (which in itself is funny, but I digress) about how to properly make rape the butt of a joke. But the issue I see with that is that rape is not being used as the butt of the joke in the original Dickwolf comic. The butt of the joke is the ridiculousness of the static 5/5 quest complete system that World of Warcraft operates on.
There’s a similar situation going on in Canada right now concerning the Dire Strait’s “Money for Nothing” song. There’s a plan by the CRTC to ban the song due to the use of the word “faggot” in it. Before you slap me with a link to the site telling me about how conflicting stories are not relevant or whatever the hell it says, the issue is much the same. Those for the ban see the use of the word as offensive and unwarranted, and see no place for it in an area of public use. Those against the ban see it as a misunderstanding of the context of the song, and believe that the original version of the song should be the one to be played. The song uses the word faggot to express the jealousy of the speaker in the lyrics towards said “faggots”. To quote J.C. Douglas of Q 104, the lyrics “suggest that he’s actually jealous of their jobs and lifestyles, and would prefer them to his own – essentially that he might, in fact, be happier to be one of the ‘faggots’ to whom he refers”.
Bear with me before you go on about how this has nothing to do with anything. Look at the original Dickwolf comic again. They are not using the idea of rape as a joke, or to insult people. Even if you were to take the second panel on its own and look at what the butt of the joke is, I believe that it’s not rape. The butt of the joke in this panel would be, simply, the ridiculousness of the concept of a “Dickwolf”. If the words “by the dickwolves” were removed from the panel, the humor in it (for the majority of people) would be lost.
And thus we return to the comic as a whole. The main joke is, again, how in World of Warcraft, players are to leave behind slaves in mines simply because they have saved the required 5/5 slaves to complete the quest, leaving behind others to slave away. The use of rape and the Dickwolf is used to perpetuate the absurdity of leaving behind slaves to suffer through atrocities simply because you “only needed to save five slaves”.
The people defending Penny Arcade here and not supporters of rape, just as the people defending the use of the word faggot in “Money for Nothing” do not support the use of the word. In both cases, people are defending the use of the word or term in the context in which it is being used, that is, in an artistic sense where it is used to augment the overall effect of the comic. Faggot is used to show the jealousy of the speaker in Money for Nothing, and the concept of rape is used in the comic to help portray the foolishness of leaving behind slaves for such an arbitrary reason. In fact, the comic could be considered to be advocation for just how serious and cruel a matter rape is.
I think a big reason that Gabe has replied in the manner that he has is that he believes at least something akin to what I just outlined the the previous few paragraphs. In fact, I believe that were it not for all of this fuss over the comic, Gabe would not be wearing his Dickwolves t-shirt. Relating again back to the issue of “Money for Nothing” and the CRTC, the announcement to ban the original version of the song was met by a Halifax radio station playing the song for an hour straight, as well as much more often throughout regular programming. This kind of reaction is similar to the reaction of “Team Dickwolves”. I have no doubt that people are more interested now than ever to purchase and/or wear Dickwolves paraphernalia, and I also firmly believe that before this situation arose, people would not associate the Dickwolves shirt with rape or the establishment of a rape society. The people who wear Dickwolves shirts are not wearing them to say that rape is ok, nor is the Halifax radio station proclaiming that the use of the word faggot is ok. Both of these groups of people are defending the use of taboo subject matter when it is used under the artistic context of furthering a message that does not support the use of the offensive act or term.
The context of the Dickwolves shirt will change drastically as a result of this as well. Before all of this, the shirt would be worn because someone thought it or the comic was cool, interesting, or funny. Now it will be associated with rape even more so (Obviously, the concept of a Dickwolf is associated with rape within the first sentence it is used. But, again, the butt of the joke is not rape, but the humor in the imagining of a Dickwolf). I highly doubt that someone who does not read Penny Arcade would trigger horrible rape-related memories upon seeing the word Dickwolves (If they do, there’s likely other issues at work). But now that the association of Dickwolves with rape and rape societies has been so widespread, it likely could. but that’s not the fault of Penny Arcade. If someone did read Penny Arcade and saw the shirt, they would likley remember the subject of rape in the comic, yes. But I don’t think that the mentioning of rape in the comic is intense enough to disgust someone just upon seeing the word “Dickwolves” (…Oh, wait).
In the end, I don’t believe that rape is the issue people like me are defending Penny Arcade for. It’s defending the use of taboo terms under a proper, artistic environment (I realize that you are going to try and ridicule the association of Penny Arcade with art).
And by the way, Trolling is not synonymous with disagreeing with somebody on a matter of opinion.
Hmm. So, victim-blaming, huh.
Still not owning up to your endorsement of censorship huh?
You are a very special person.
I guess since no one else seems to comprehend censorship, that does make me special.
Given how the owner of this blog did not actually force them to do anything, and censorship can only be committed by those who have the power to do it (like the government, for example), which KB has none, PA chose to act of their own accord in removing it. That is not censorship. That is a reaction to pressure, but not censorship. The decision to take it down was their own.
They censored themselves based on outside pressure…. Seriously how hard is this to understand. PA was pressured to take down some of their/merchandise based on OTHER peoples moral/ethics. The dickwolf shirt wouldn’t have been taken down but they bowed to other peoples morals/ethics. The fact they were forced to censor themselves based on outside pressure is what it boils down to.
You forced your morals/ethics on other people by pressuring PA into censoring themselves.
Stop thinking censorship is only big government banning books or something.
Real, actual censorship can only be done by outside forces who have the power to enforce it. It can be the government, it can be the server that hosts PA (assuming they don’t own it), whatever. A chick with a blog cannot censor these two men who have MUCH more power and influence than she.
The choice to keep it up has always been available to them. They chose not to take that route. IT WAS A CHOICE.
CHOICE.
No one forced them to do shit. It’s a shame you can’t get this, but it’s the truth nonetheless.
Just like its a choice when a woman says no, but a man slaps her around a bit, and eventually she just gives in, that’s her choice too right?
No, because being slapped around counts as force: the threat of violence.
I knew it wouldn’t take long before someone uses rape as a comparison to taking a shirt design out of a store.
Well really, he didn’t say that she personally censored the shirt, he said that she was endorsing censorship. As in she is endorsing the censorship of the shirt by Mike and Jerry.
Uh, when did aguy say that she censored the shirt? He said that she ENDORSED censorship.
Either way, he’s ignoring what is required of censorship to BE censorship.
Again. Still.
Oh stop dancing around calling a triangle a circle. at least take pride in your censorship. its bullshit arguments like that that make me mad.
Ah yes, and once they don’t have a leg to stand on they resort to calling it a bullshit argument.
How incredibly insensitive of you to throw around the word “special” as an insult.
My brother, who I dearly love, is mentally handicapped, and that kind of callous disregard for people born like him really takes a toll on my family.
In the future, could you please try and use a different word? It would make people like me feel a lot better, and maybe you will feel better too! Hope this helps!
Apologies, that was a choice of word I was using in lieu of words others choose to use.
I just want to point out that you mocked trigger warnings yourself in this posting in the exact same manner that you are angry at Mike “Gabe” Krahulik for doing in his blog post.
Food for thought.
and we have a Godwin.
Trust me melp, do not bother dealing with Ayama Nikura; it’ll be deleted like the last three things S/he said, one was identical to this and the other two were much much worse.
I have a feeling the deletions weren’t entirely due to all his posts being total spam.
There are plenty of posts here that are critical to Kirby, there are plenty of posts over the three threads that make her look bad (and she’s acknowledged them and edited her posts accordingly).
The stuff that was deleted was just completely abhorrent. You and others are making an arguments; some are valid, some are not, some are polite, some are not. This person didn’t do that. The ‘nicest’ thing this person posted (other than spamming the posts with the same words dozens of times) is that all men are equivalent to Hitler. The rest are simply vile attacks and insisting she deserves to be raped/murdered/both.
Of course there is nothing left to prove this, because hey, they have been deleted. So you just stick with that feeling you’ve got.
““You” being the people reading the message, aka the fans. So not, “some of you are happy…” just SOME PEOPLE. To me, this sounds like my mom when someone jaywalks in front of her car, “I swear, some people!””
I never knew “some people” was suddenly a terrible term. I think he was trying to relate that while the group petitioning for the t-shirt’s removal was relatively small, the internet backlash was bigger. It’s simply a matter of quantity.
… I was going to refute every point in the article, but it is late, and I haven’t the strength. But I refuse to believe that the people at Penny Arcade, who have donated millions to charity, have suffered a lack of sponsorships for their successful events, or are in any need of new friends after the backlash from that silly comic.
Truth is, I was really angry about this whole situation, earlier in the day. I was angry that someone had taken away a mildly amusing shirt that I might’ve wanted to buy. But now i just don’t care. Mike is right when he says you can’t make everyone happy, and you can’t. And you’re just not happy. And nothing I say or do will change that.
You know what’s disappointing though? Your change of attitude. Early today you were praising Mike for his decision to take the shirt off, and now that’s he’s written an explanation for fans of the shirt, you’re putting him on a stake? There are many people (who are against rape) that like the shirt, and Mike owes them an explanation. The shirt is gone. You won. There’s no need to victimize yourself and say that Mike’s placid response to the situation is saying something that it isn’t by examining the minutia of his word choice.
In any case, if you want more people to believe you, you should stop capitalizing every other word and linking to the same tired website.
Mike’s response wasn’t placid. If you were upset about something (anything–legit or no) and someone offered you what Mike wrote, you’d see it for what it is: divisive pouting.
He could have defused the situation right at the start by saying, “Hey, we stand by our comic, but we understand how it might have upset some of you. If it did, sorry–we hope you know we are not pro-rape.” Tah-dah, the end, next topic. It wouldn’t have satisfied every single person, but it would have put the issue to bed. How hard is that? But no, we have to mock people with PTSD.
I guarantee you that if he’d made a comic that upset U.S. veterans with PTSD, Penny Arcade would have issued an apology in an ass-puckering hurry.
How is it divisive pouting? They made the decision to take the shirt down. It’s clear that while he’s not entirely happy about it, he’s willing to do so for the greater good. In your hypothetical scenario, maybe I wouldn’t agree entirely with the response, but I would at least be grateful that the I got what I wanted.
What’s funny is that Penny Arcade did make that kind of response you describe, only it was in trademark Penny Arcade irreverence. And it didn’t satisfy every single person. And they weren’t mocking PTSD victims, they were mocking the concept that they were pro-rape.
As an FYI, if you mock trigger warnings, you are openly mocking PTSD victims. You do realize they did this, right?
As stated by Kirbybits, Mike also suffers from PTSD. To my knowledge, Mike made a reference to trigger warnings on a singular occasion.
But I don’t understand how making a joke about trigger warnings instantly affect PTSD victims. Trigger warnings aren’t synonymous with PTSD victims, as is the other way around. Isn’t it possible to mock the concept of trigger warnings without insulting PTSD victims? In any case, Mike wasn’t full-on saying “Trigger Warnings are Stupid,” and writing an essay about it, it was a singular reference.
Maybe everyone doesn’t respect the sanctity of trigger warnings, but everyone respects the pain of PTSD victims. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
I could buy that argument–that he was just mocking the concept of trigger warnings, and not the people who use them–if it weren’t part of the larger context, which was that he had a group of people saying to him, “Hey, that joke triggered me and it felt like shit.” But it was a part of that larger context, and so I don’t buy that argument.
As a side note, I like to thank you for providing some much needed, non-inflammatory comments to this, herpderp.
I can understand how you feel that way, the context is indeed damning. But as a PTSD sufferer himself, I think he was more mocking the concept.
Also, I don’t think Penny Arcade’s reaction would’ve been what it was if all of the emails directed to them were as docile as your example. Considering their response, I’m sure people went on the offensive, and they were hurt by it.
Through demonizing the PA guys, I think we’re all forgetting that they have feelings too.
Glad to talk with you, Ugh.
The PA guys certainly do have feelings too.
Mike actually mentioned that he got thoughtful emails on the subject that he considered, rather than a barrage of hate mail. But also, remember that these guys work on the internet. With gamers. They know the drill. They get irate emails allllllll the time. From crazies, and from people who have a legit beef.
Normally they either don’t respond, or they respond with grace.
Here, they lost their damn minds. I feel it’s okay to call them out on that. KirbyBits called them out on it too, and she did so without malice. (Expressing anger and upset doesn’t equal malice.) She was very firm but civil, and I don’t see why she’s getting all of this crazy, abusive shit now, from people who are mad that she got mad. It makes no sense.
It also bugs me that people defending PA tend not to have read up on the whole deal. They’ve got it simplified in their heads as “omg this bitch doesn’t like my shirt FREEDOM OF SPEACH MAN.” That’s not how it happened. That’s not what we’re talking about.
I love irreverence. I love Penny Arcade’s style of humor. Part of why I love it is that their intent is always clear.
In this case, they mocked trigger warnings, and went on to be dismissive and angry about legitimate concerns. That’s not irreverent humor, that’s something else entirely.
They could have removed the shirt–or even not removed it!–with grace, making clear that they understood the problem and hadn’t intended to bring back any bad memories. Remember, Mike knows what PTSD feels like, so he should be able to empathize here.
Instead they got sarcastic, and the latest post amounted to, “We took the shirt out of our store because of those mean people with no sense of humor over there. Go git ‘em, boys!” And that’s what’s happening. They’re shooting themselves in the foot now, as a brand. It’s sad to watch because it could have been prevented.
Also, it’s funny that Mike told everyone who doesn’t now want to be stuck in a convention full of d00dz wearing dickwolf shirts (which, before his poor reaction, wouldn’t have been a problem), to stay home.
I hope he’s not confused when he ends up with a PAX full of the “bros” he so hates: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/1/14/
Disregarding what I said earlier, let’s assume for the moment that Mike’s response is divisive pouting. Does childish pouting warrant this kind of bombast response, then?
Uhm, yeah. Because he’s dismissing the reactions of RAPE VICTIMS.
Are we forgetting that’s been the problem the entire time?
He’s not dismissing the reactions of rape victims, if he did, he wouldn’t have taken the shirt down.
My main problem with kirbybits’ response is that while Mike’s response is (arguably) even-tempered and rational, kirbybits’ response is a flurry of rage. What’s the point of having a logical discussion if you’re going to be met with responses like that?
Kirby was pretty damn calm up until this last post. You have to concede that.
And, well, so she’s displaying anger now. Why is that wrong, especially given the subject at hand? I think rage has a legitimate place here.
Now, if she started insulting your mom, you’d have a leg to stand on. But she hasn’t.
I’m not a Kirbybits scholar, but you’re right, she hasn’t. But before this post she has called them dicks and assholes, which is two more names than what the PA guys have called PTSD/rape victims.
I’m not saying anger is never warranted. But this level of rage makes it impossible to wage a decent argument, don’t you think? Let’s disregard the subject matter for the moment: simply comparing the tone of the two articles, which one seems more rational? If she wants to gain supporters or convince Mike of her position, there’s no way to do it with her current attitude. It just doesn’t seem level-headed.
“But before this post she has called them dicks and assholes, which is two more names than what the PA guys have called PTSD/rape victims.”
Somehow I get the feeling M&J were hurt way less by her calling them dicks and assholes than how the PTSD/rape survivors were by how dismissive M&J were of the latter group’s being triggered and upset by how blithely they joked about rape.
“Turn the other cheek.”
That applies to the PA guys, too, then, but they went and made a shirt and a bunch of snide comments instead. :-/
really not sure it’s appropriate to be asking KB, a rape survivor, to turn the other cheek towards the PA guys, given what they’ve said and done thus far.
I seriously cannot co-sign what melp has said about this enough.
I don’t think calling someone a dick or an asshole invalidates an entire, legitimate argument. If a bit of name calling delegitimizes and argument, or foul language does, or anger does, let’s go back and see how many of Tycho’s posts we can disregard. Heh.
Her argument is rational, period. Her post was an explanation of why she herself was not going to speak at PAX East. And Kirbybits is not the leader of some giant lady-movement against the PA guys. There is no leader or organization trying to gain supporters here. It’s just a woman with a blog, her opinions, and some commenters. How threatening is that? Why is that seen as such a huge deal?
If we’re going to discuss her level of rage (RIGHT in front of her, on HER blog, I should add–I feel weird about that), I guess I’ll say that I see way more rage than this every day on the PA forums when someone gets mad about something that happens in a game.
Hell, I wouldn’t even call this rage.
I still have some posts to catch up on (that pesky RL thing being what it is kept me away from the important business of Someone Being Wrong On The Internet) but I thought I’d share with you information about tone argument:
http://derailingfordummies.com/#hostile
That being said? Sure she’s guilty of name calling, but if that’s the least she’s done then frankly after all the crap she’s put up with she still qualifies for sainthood. If you subscribed to comments earlier you would have seen some completely stomach-churning abhorrent comments. There are people on twitter who are demanding proof that she was raped. I have no idea what emails she might be getting at the same time. Real classy things like that, with, well, let’s say they are less respectful than kirbybits is being.
holy fuck, I don’t care if you disagree with people, but STOP FUCKING LINKING TO THAT STUPID WEBSITE AND FORMULATE YOUR OWN FUCKING ARGUMENTS. DERAILING FOR DUMMIES IS NOT THE FUCKING ARGUMENT BIBLE
It took him three months and many, many complaints to fix a problem that never should have existed in the first place. The fact that he took it down is better than nothing, yes, but this whole thing started, and is still going on under the surface, from just not giving a shit.
In all honesty, have you ever had a discussion with someone who says things calmly and words them in ways that are not OBVIOUSLY bad, but you still can sense how they’re not taking you seriously in the least bit? (Like that way he compared e-mails to blogs. Oh, my.)
I’d be surprised if you hadn’t. Hell, politicians do it all the time. (Thinking of how Mama Bush said that Sarah Palin should stay in Alaska a few months back… it was tasteful but still an open burn.)
You’re also forgetting that KB has been dealing with PA’s nerdragers for a while now, which Mike has been feeding into with his unnecessary commentary. If she’s run out of patience by this point I really cannot blame her.
at this point I am truly tired and will be going (probably never to return), and I regret all the arguments i’ve left open-ended.
However, please. Don’t call them/us nerdragers. We don’t like being made fun of just as much as rape victims.
while you all have raised some good points, I still remain unconvinced that the PA guys did more than have a little fun about a taboo subject. In my mind, it’s still a silly throwaway gag, and the shirt an off shoot of that. And I’m sure there are some PTSD/rape victims that would agree with me.
So long.
though you probably won’t read this, I didn’t mean to include you (or welp) in the “nerdrager” category, since you actually tried to articulate, and in a calm and civil manner, your point.
Oh come on, man.
They can make fun of trigger warnings, but you’re offended by a mention of “nerdrage”…that’s kind of cheap.
BTW, I am a nerd gamer in the game industry too. So I guess I can use the argument that “my friends and I aren’t offended by the term ‘nerd rage,’ so you shouldn’t be either!
and also: KB is a rape survivor. She had every right to be furious from the get-go at this whole situation. She’s been quite calm until now.
If it were just childish pouting, then no. But rubbing salt in the wounds of rape victims out of spite?
Just as it’s Mike’s right to say what he wants on his site, I think it’s anybody’s right to speak up if they have a problem with what he says. Fair’s fair.
But wait, now you’ve changed your position entirely. Pouting and “rubbing salt in the wounds of rape victims” are entirely different things, and I’d argue that the latter is a little excessive. And if it was his decision, why would he be spiteful? Sure, a little dismayed maybe, but spiteful?
I totally agree with your last point.
I haven’t changed position; we’re talking about two different posts here–there’s a trail of stuff that PA posted *between* when the comic came out and Mike’s post from this afternoon.
This afternoon he was pouting. In a *previous* post (and I don’t have the link handy, but I believe KirbyBits linked to it in one of her posts here) he mocked trigger warnings, just after he was made aware that the comic upset some folks. That, in my view, was unnecessary spite. *That* was what roused me from my internet slumber and made me start posting.
im working this out for myself, so forgive me if i seem dumb. so the guy with ptsd makes fun of people with ptsd? maybe he was trying to ease tension? i dont know how it is with ptsd, never having had it, but i poke fun at myself for my adhd, and the twitchy fuckers at my work for having it too, and nobody gets offended there. maybe his way of coping with a disorder is by making fun of it, and to the remark about it being unplacid, can you give an example? write a fake apology for her argument, so i can better understand. did you ever think that maybe she is looking for a reason to be mad? i get mad at my girlfriend all the time, for constantly being late, and when she apologizes i forgive her, because she honestly means it. but i dont stop being mad for a while, because the disappointment and betrayal are still there. my point being is that in my anger, i will look for things to get mad at, faults that she might have, just to have something to yell about. if you could help clear these issues up, i would appreciate it
It’s not easing tension when you’re deliberately aggravating and dismissing people who complain at you.
If you want a fake apology, for these real complaints, here: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/13/ Why is it fake? Because they twist the actual issue into something it is easier to mock. They avoid addressing actual concerns. They have no regrets for their issues, in the least.
This is not a thing to ‘look for’ to get mad at. Why? Because it’s right there, every time Gabe or Tycho bring up the issue.
Nice try. No one here thinks that.
All of this over a comic strip that mentions rape, and the rape bit isn’t even the joke.
This is probably the most disgusting way I’ve seen someone get attention.
So the line, “Every night we are raped to sleep by dickwolves” isn’t a joke?
It “is” a joke. But it’s not glorifying rape.
If anything it’s akin to a dark play on horrible fairy tale stories (the old kind, which were meant to scare children) Just taking it to the next level.
The idea of a little slave NPC being raped to sleep by a dickwolf was both a hilarious, and horrifying concept.
At the end of the day, we are able to laugh at it because we understand that no harm is actually being done, as the NPC is a block of pixels.
Who said Tycho and Gabe were glorifying rape? Aside from the imaginary critics Tycho and Gabe made up, then responded to in their next comic, I mean.
Can you please explain why rape is hilarious?
It is hilarious because it was being done to a male character.
Back in the days of Araby (old middle east/persia/when Sultans were rulers, that sort of thing) Usually when one land was successfully invaded by another invading army, the Invaders Prince (yes, the prince!) would rape the invaded countries Prince through sodomy in order to show dominance for the next generation.
It is used as a tool for demoralization to an invaded country. The ultimate shame for a man.
So yes, the concept of a poor slave man NPC being raped by a mythical creature is quite hilarious.
Rape has always been a part of human nature, whether we like to accept it or not. I’m not trying to glorify it here, it’s pretty terrible. Just saying that trying to fight against a word that means so many different things in the context of the internet nowadays, it’s kind of a useless fight to struggle against the casual usage of the word.
“It is hilarious because it was being done to a male character.”
ORLY?
Think about this for a second. Use your brain. I shouldn’t even have to point this out. Why is it so funny when it’s being done to a male?
I think I already answered that. It’s funny because of the historical connotation of male on male rape = an act of shaming and dominance, not to mention rape does not happen to males all that often.
It’s the same reason seeing a woman be the brunt of a practical joke is funny in a movie, as girls are usually left untouched and it’s always the guys that usually get hurt.
It’s a reverse gender comedy trip up. It catches you off guard.
Are you out of your f-ing mind? Men being raped is “FUNNY”? You are a sick, sick human being.
It’s OKAY for something terrible to be funny when it’s NOT ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
Remember? This was a comic strip, no one was actually raped by mythological dickwolves. And he actually makes a good point, a big part of the basis of humor is situations that are out of the ordinary or things that are the opposite of what would normally happen. It’s not the rape that’s supposed to be funny.
What’s supposed to provoke a chuckle is that a MAN is being raped by DICKWOLVES.
In fact the dickwolves thing is really where the humor lies here. A wolf with penises for legs? Could it be any more nonsensical?
And yet you people are taking this like they just made a joke in which rape itself, in a vacuum, is portrayed as funny which is clearly not the case if you have a fucking brain.
So what, people don’t actually get raped? Whether it be by dickwolves or not?
Much the same as people don’t get hit by cars, shot at in war, suffer deadly diseases or get bullied in school, therefore those are all far game for any variety of jokes.
I could see where the problem might be if the comic had actually been some grand insult aimed at those who have suffered a rape, but as it is the sheer runaround you have to do in your mind to make this out as anything other than a joke referencing the dissonance between the mindset of RPGs and real life is ridiculous.
People do not get raped by dickwolves, no.
Hey, blatantly co-opting the question to turn it into one that wasn’t asked because it enabled you to be smarmy about it, good for you.
“It is hilarious because it was being done to a male character. ”
What the fuck is wrong with you.
Rape is a horrible and unfunny thing to happen to anyone regardless of gender.
It’s meant to make the hero empathetic to the slave’s plight and make him want to rescue more than the programmatically sufficient quantity of slaves.
It’s no more a joke than any other component of the comic. As with all build-up in comedy, it’s meant to be taken with the whole.
The individual lines are sentences. The comic is the joke.
Wow. 18 downratings for saying that no one here thinks “men are literally Hitler,” which is the post I was replying to. What a world.
Obviously they disagree with you.
How does this comment keep wandering around
Penny Arcade has been making jokes about controversial subjects for like a decade, it’s ridiculous that this comes up now.
They can make jokes about whatever they want, if you don’t like it, don’t read the goddamn comic. This entire blog basically comes down to “Stop liking what I don’t like” and it’s disgusting.
Then stop coming to this blog to say “Stop not liking what I like” if you feel so strongly about it.
So he shouldn’t be able to share his opinion of the subject, only you and people who share your viewpoint?
I don’t think that at all. But if Guest443 feels so strongly about people saying “Stop liking what I don’t like” then they shouldn’t be doing the exact same thing, lest others spot an element of hypocrisy in their standards.
The guys at PA try to make amends and be as cordial as possible, and yet you return it with snide remarks and hate?
Fuck YOUR noise
That was about as much an attempt at amends as me saying “I’m sorry that you are a fucking moron” is.
I really like how this whole issue has stemmed from people misunderstanding a joke, and now they realize they’ll look too foolish if they don’t keep whining.
you described Mike and Jerry very well there.
well, mostly Mike.
This whole situation would have never gotten this big and would have died during the summer if they didn’t feel obligated to make a public response to people’s offense. Not saying anything, as they often do to complaints about offensiveness in their comic, would have been their wisest available move.
i wonder why, in this case, they chose to be so asinine.
Yeah, shame on them for attempting to compromise.
What fucking compromise, you fucking idiot?
They made a comic strip about dickwolves. Some people were upset by it. By their own admission, there’s ALWAYS someone upset by something they say; they’re used to it, and usually don’t do anything about it.
But this time they chose to make a public response to it that belittled everyone who felt that way immediately after the publication of the comic, and THEN made a t-shirt to profit over the entire fiasco.
THAT is what I was talking about. NOT this recent development. And it’s great that (after three months of making money off of it) they took the product down.
I was referring to the removal of the shirt from the shop. Some people wanted the comic and the shirt removed, they compromised by removing the shirt but keeping the comic.
You were referring to the t-shirt, which refers to the original comic which started this shitstorm. Which could have ended on little more than a brief shit drizzle had they kept to their usual route of not opening their mouths via keyboard and revealing how shockingly self-centered they really are.
I’d always thought they were really great guys and have met them several times, and even donated to Child’s Play. I still hope CP does its great work, but I’ll be GODDAMNED if they didn’t make up for being awesome in one department by being utter shite in another.
I think they wrote the comic because, seriously, who in this day and age is pro-rape? I think the were addressing the ridiculousness of the prospect that they were pro-rape. It’s silly because, well, they’re Penny Arcade.
Also, I’d like to note that Mike and Jerry are the heads of Child’s Play, which has helped donate millions to sick kids and hospitals. I don’t think they care about the money from one t-shirt as much as they think you do.
Copy-pasting from another comment I left, as I didn’t notice this one but already addressed what you said:
I’d always thought they were really great guys and have met them several times, and even donated to Child’s Play. I still hope CP does its great work, but I’ll be GODDAMNED if they didn’t make up for being awesome in one department by being utter shite in another.
Being a great person in one way doesn’t excuse being awful in others. I’ve lost so much respect for them, it’s a massive disappointment.
Who ever accused them of being pro-rape? Why are people STILL acting on the falsity that people are saying ‘reading this comic automatically makes you a rapist’?
Perhaps pro-rape was a poor choice of words. But the fact that they devoted a whole comic to how much they hate rape shows that they had to clarify that, well, they didn’t like rape. And that enough people demanded to hear it.
You bet your ass it was a poor choice of words.
The comic you seem to be referring to ridiculed the original complainants and turned their genuine issues into a strawman argument. If they had’ve said nothing then this would have blown over in a week. OF COURSE they don’t LIKE rape, but their ignorance and arrogance to mock these people hasn’t endeared themselves to a lot of people at all.
Now wait a minute, did my admission that pro-rape was a poor choice of words warrant a “you bet your ass?” Unlike other people on this thread/comment board/whatever I haven’t insulted you, and I’d like to keep my discussion civil.
While I’m not a part of the affected group, I never saw the response comic as mocking the people who are hurt by rape and PTSD, but more of mocking the concept that they might be pro-rape. Their response could be seen as sarcastic, and it is, most likely because they thought the whole thing was much ado about nothing. The dickwolves thing was a throwaway gag.
So my interpretation of the comic is that, while they realize that it’s gotten to a point where they have to clarify their position on rape, they also put a surly spin on it to entertain the fans and acknowledge their own surprise at the fact that such a small line became such a big deal.
“While I’m not a part of the affected group, I never saw the response comic as mocking the people who are hurt by rape and PTSD, but more of mocking the concept that they might be pro-rape.”
Except he also made a mocking comment about trigger warnings (a trigger warning for people who have no sense of humor, IIRC, or some other silly thing). Which is mocking people with PTSD by mocking trigger warnings, which many survivors appreciate so they can avoid being triggered. Does that not make sense?
How is a trigger warning about not having a sense of humor mocking trigger warnings? What about that is depicting actual trigger warnings as being negative in anyway? Or are you just saying that people who have PTSD, and people who are writing something that could possibly trigger someone with PTSD are the only people who are ever allowed to say it?
“How is a trigger warning about not having a sense of humor mocking trigger warnings?”
Because trigger warnings, if you have forgotten, are SERIOUS THINGS. They are meant to warn people that the following content may be triggering for survivors (of abuse, rape, eating disorders [that includes people who have not yet begun to climb out of them], whatever). No one needs a trigger warning for a “sense of humor” because humor itself is not a trigger, but humor around nasty topics like the above mentioned can be. He’s also targeting people who did not appreciate the rape humor but rather than say “trigger warning for rape content”, he says “trigger warning for people who don’t have a sense of humor” – which would be people who don’t enjoy dickwolf rape jokes.
It’s ridiculous that you don’t see how obviously sarcastic he was being there.
I’m pretty sure I’ve found the “mocking comment” you’re referring to:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/10/6/dungeons-and-dragons/
It’s not really used in conjunction with anything that would offend someone with PTSD, and not really used in a fashion where people with PTSD would be the butt of the joke. It’s just the phrase used in a silly way, I don’t really see why someone with PTSD would really be offended by that. And it has nothing to do with rape or dickwolves, it’s just used as an interesting header to a post.
Because it’s not aimed at everyone who has PTSD. It’s aimed at the people who were upset at the recent comic and discussed trigger warnings in their responses. You know, the rape survivors who didn’t find it funny?
Without the context of the Dickwolves comic and public reaction the Trigger Warning comment would be completley random.
Ugh, I would just like to thank you for being one of the only rational people on this website. You also seem to be one of the only people with the ability to understand satire.
so rational people are only those who agree with you
i c
No rational people are people who consider what both sides are saying. Note that when invisiblemoosenz told him that nobody accused Mike and Jerry of being pro-rape, he acknowledged it and changed his argument accordingly.
That’s being rational.
welp:
re:invisiblemoosez
something you only acknowledged after my comment.
Thanks. Honestly, I appreciate that.
and ftr, I think you’re a MUCH more pleasant poster than many of the people who came to voice their dissent, so I just want to give you credit for that as well. (And “ugh” too, of course.)
I’m sure later on there will be plenty of comments resorting to simply insulting KB, accusing her of lying about being a rape survivor, and/or threatening her. It’s too bad this won’t last.
We are talking about the same welp who said to me “As you are clearly uneducated and may not know how to use google” in such a condescending manner, right?
Yeah. Honestly, have you been reading all the other comments KB’s been getting?
This guy won’t get a gold star or anything, but at least he hasn’t reduced himself entirely to…well, what the deleted comments were doing.
I just wanna apologize for insulting you there. It was not necessary.
I noticed you’ve taken his use of the words “some people” to great lengths in this post.
Maybe it’s this misunderstanding and/or over-exaggeration of context that’s sparked this situation in the first place?
After attempting reasonable argument for days, I must say this once and for all:
U mad.
You forgot this golden tidbit too:
“I’ll even put you on a list so that if, in a moment of weakness you try to by a ticket we can cancel the order.”
Because the best way to show you’re sympathetic and not an asshole is to refund someone’s money when they ask and THEN add them to a list banning them from PAX forever for being sensitive about their ~*awesome*~ joke and shirt.
I used to like Penny Arcade too, but this comic and issue has ruined the strip for me forever. I have no respect for Gabe or Tycho now.
So if a casino blacklists someone who decides to not go to that casino anymore due to gambling addiction, is that just the casino being an asshole to the person because they have a problem with their slot machines?
What the fuck does that have to do with the issue at hand.
It’s called an analogy. As you are clearly uneducated and may not know how to use google, here is a link containing the definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy
we’re aware of what an analogy is. It was just a really awful one.
And how is that?
People have an issue with rape-related topics, they decide to not give a convention their business, and are added to a blacklist so that they don’t succumb to their temptations and go.
People have an issue with gambling, they decide not to give a casino their business, and they are added to a blacklist so they don’t succumb to their temptations and go to the casino.
And the whole argument is futile anyway, he was obviously kidding, why would he not want to make more money?
while it has been explained already, allow me to try one last time.
A casino is a business that only partakes in something that is known for causing damage to people’s lives; if they make an ethical decision to ban someone from further hurting themselves that’s odd because their business is taking people’s money through the player losses.
PA Expo is meant to be welcoming and NON-HURTFUL to all people (this is why they have no babe booth thing, for example, due to how it makes many women and some men uncomfortable). They are open about this; this is why they stopped selling the shirt. But PE Expo is built on PA; PA Expo cannot reasonably be welcoming to all people if PA itself is not.
One is very clear, one is terribly muddled. In any case, PA is nothing like a casino, business practices or anything of the sort, and really can’t be compared to one.
Again, you seem to think that a casino just bans people from gambling there because they aren’t good at it. People decide THEM SELF that they do not want to go the casino, and the casino enforces their decision for them.
Just like how someone would decide for THEM SELF to not attend PAX. Neither the casino nor Mike or Jerry are just kicking people out. People are making the decision on their own.
yeah, but a person can change their mind about PAX if things change for the better at the place or they decide to go for another reason. Banning them from going ever again is just an open dick, bitter as hell move.
When did he say he was banning them from ever going again after this PAX?
“I’ll even put you on a list so that if, in a moment of weakness you try to by a ticket we can cancel the order.”
“I’ll even put you on a list so that if … you try to by a ticket we can cancel the order.”
You cannot enter without a ticket, if you cannot buy a ticket you cannot enter: ergo, banned. How putting someone on a do-not-enter list not banning them?
Oh ho ho, you sure told me.
Allow me to pose the same question to you in a way that means you don’t get to pretend you’re so smart by patronizingly offering a definition to a word you are using so poorly.
How is a person who wants a refund on a ticket effectively being banned from future events, should they change their mind, the same as someone who has to be removed due from a place due to a crippling addiction?
Except that people with gambling addictions don’t have to be removed from casinos, the casino would love to take more of their money, they decide them self that they do not wish to visit the casino. Just like you would decide your self to not go to PAX.
But as Gabe himself says he doesn’t WANT people there ever again if they don’t go in this time, so again your analogy is a shitty one.
First of all, Gabe is a fictional character. To say that Gabe doesn’t want people going to PAX is ridiculous. Secondly, Mike never said that he didn’t want people to go to PAX ever again if they got a refund. He said that he would put their names on a list of people who did not want to attend so that if they got tempted to go, having a moment of weakness, he would cancel their order.
That is why the analogy fits, they are both examples of people deciding for them self not to do something they do not wish to do, and the other party enforcing their decisions so they don’t get tempted to turn their back on their commitment.
“First of all, Gabe is a fictional character. To say that Gabe doesn’t want people going to PAX is ridiculous.”
Are you being serious here? You actually think this was a point worth addressing? “Gabe” is not just a character, but the name Mike goes by commonly on the website. His comments about banning people from PAX were done under that handle.
What sort of ridiculous strawman was that meant to be, exactly?
See the funny thing here is that you accuse me of using a straw man argument (Which it wasn’t), by using a straw man. Did you not read the rest of my comment?
for some reason I can’t reply to welp below:
No, it is not a strawman. I did not make up some stupid point from the other person to knock it down. I merely attacked one of your own.
No but seriously, what was the point of that?
I read the rest because my reply would be repeating that your analogy is a massive flaming failure, and felt no need to do so.
No, it was a strawman because rather than addressing my actual argument, you just decided to make your entire argument based around one irrelevant thing. And fine, Gabe is a fictional character and a nickname for Mike, I’ll buy that.
BOY DO I LOVE ARGUMENTS OVER SEMANTICS
If it’s irrelevant, why did you even bring it up in the first place? Well, w/e, moving on.
“No, it was a strawman because rather than addressing my actual argument, you just decided to make your entire argument based around one irrelevant thing.”
Actively acknowledging a statement you said, even if other points were not addressed, is NOT a straw man argument.
As you are clearly uneducated and may not know how to use google, here is a link containing the definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument
invisiblemoosenz:
Let me just quote you a certain section of that definition. “without ever having actually refuted the original position.”
position.
I would interpret that as “not ever mentioning my actual argument”
lol is that kind of like how you’re ignoring the rest of the definition and zeroing in on the last few words? :3 OH MAH GOD WHAT A STRAW MAN!
Oh fuck off. He is known as Gabe pretty commonplace; Tycho (Oh, I’m sorry, JERRY) calls him Gabe all the time. How can you be so petty with this when you are being as vague as you like about your analogy.
If someone doesn’t want to go this time, HE WILL PREVENT THEM FROM FUTURE ATTENDANCE WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT. Someone can change their mind, willingly, about attending a con, they are NOT an addict that needs to be kept out in ‘a moment of weakness.’
Show me where exactly Mike said that he would cancel your order for every single future PAX if you got a refund for this PAX. All he said was that he would cancel your order. He never said anything about future PAX after all this has blown over and everyone forgets it.
Also I would like to point you back to “And the whole argument is futile anyway, he was obviously kidding, why would he not want to make more money?”.
welp:
“I’ll even put you on a list so that if, in a moment of weakness you try to by a ticket we can cancel the order.”
which is a not-so-discrete way of saying “you can’t come to any more.”
All right, a misread on my part, my bad. So, replace that with
“prevent them from buying a ticket in the future.”
They can still change their mind, willingly, about attending a con.
melp:
Where are you getting “If someone doesn’t want to go this time, HE WILL PREVENT THEM FROM FUTURE ATTENDANCE WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT.” from in that quote? He says nothing about canceling orders for any PAX outside of this one.
invisiblemoosenz:
Do you honestly believe he is actually going to make a grudge list of anyone who gets a refund for their PAX ticket and prevent them from buying another? You could interpret “I’ll even put you on a list” two ways. One being “I will put you on this list if you get a refund”, and the other being “I will put you on this list if you decide you want to be put on the list after getting your refund”. Neither you nor I know which he was intending.
He also doesn’t say it’s specific to this year’s PAX, so it can be taken either way.
But he is talking about if you already bought a ticket, so he is definitely talking about this PAX for sure. As he doesn’t mention anything outside of this PAX, I would assume he is only talking about this PAX, as he has given me no reason to think otherwise.
His overall bitterness and butthurt has given me plenty of reason to think otherwise.
I don’t think this is a discussion worth pursuing any further, though; we will have to simply disagree and call it there.
Alright I’m fine with you having a different opinion than me, but do you really think he is being overly bitter? And what does he really have to be butthurt over? That some people didn’t like his comic? You think after as long as the comic has been up, he would be that sensitive to negative criticism? If anything I’m getting the impression that he doesn’t really care. Especially considering the tweet where he said he was going to wear his shirt anyway.
And I really don’t think him or Jerry would really care too much about being pressured into taking their niche shirt down.
Once upon a time, I did not. Like it has been mentioned elsewhere, they don’t generally care enough to respond to criticism openly. How they chose to conduct themselves over, as you and others have pointed out, a SINGLE comic strip and hte public reaction to it has critically altered my view of them. I can’t be entirely sure what to expect of them anymore.
Personally, him wearing that shirt strikes me as a very BAD sort of don’t-care: the fuck-you-I’m-gonna-do-what-I-want type. Which is bad in this case because, despite pulling the shirt from their sales and the convention to make others feel safer, he’s going to continue wearing this in spite of all that’s happened. :/
I’m guessing this is one of those AMAZING ARGUMENTS the poster named “Er…” was referring to.
Amazing it is. Albeit not quite as great as the Er thought. :C
Oh, just fuck off and lighten up, kirby. Getting fucking serious over a COMIC STRIP AND A DAMN T-SHIRT. People like you are the reason why we Americans get fucking made fun of every damn day.
OMG, just fuck off lighten up, random douchebag! Getting serious over a damn blog post that is about something you think is stupid anyway!
hdu
As an European, I’d like to say people like YOU are why we make fun of Americans every damn day.
You literally need to take a big step back. You have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s the year 2011.
Yes, rape is awful. Yes, rape happens. Yes, we can’t just ignore it. But, the particular joke that Penny Arcade made was about as “controversial” as something on Saturday Night Live. MOST people read the comic and moved on. But people like you, people who are OBSESSED with rape and can’t get enough of their little pity parade need to honestly shut the fuck up. Just Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Go get counseling and move on with your life. Better yet. Leave other people alone about YOUR PERSONAL PROBLEMS. The Penny Arcade guys are a modern example of Da Vinci and Shakespeare. They’re doing things in this creative medium that will be remembered for years to come.
You need to leave the matter alone. What’s going on with them doesn’t involve you. Your rape only matters to you. Quit bringing people down in your personal misery. A piece of cultural entertainment was taken down because of you. A piece of MY culture, OUR culture FREE SPEECH was taken down because of ONE person’s personal problems. (Or a few of you, it doesn’t matter.) Which is not a big deal at all once you think about it. The human brain is a wonderful mechanism at getting over traumas. See, you’re just a blogger who enjoys attention. You’re on the wrong side on this one.
Move on with your life.
Quit posting on the internet and find something constructive to do. Like fly a kite. Your talents wouldn’t be wasted if you just went kite flying one day.
Take that ball of misery and just let it go.
I feel bad for you. Not because you appear to have rage issues, but because you can apparently compare Mike and Jerry to Da Vinci and Shakespeare with a straight face.
It’s the year 2011, year of Men telling Women to Calm Down and Stop Complaining About Things That Upset Them and Calling In Their One Female Friend To Back Them Up and Harass a Stranger Over The Internet?
sounds like every year to me.
You don’t spend much time around men, do you?
The fact that you assume that’s a man is depressing, and the fact that you also assume there’s only one female arguing for the side of reason is even more so.
Not all of us are misandrists like you. Some of us want actual equality instead of double-standard superiority.
I’m not a misandrist. I’m just a woman.
blah blah blah, Freedom of Speech doesn’t mean what you think it means, blah blah blah, works both ways, blah blah blah.
nooo Freedom of Speech means i can say whatever I want and if anyone disagrees with me they’re impeding on it!!1 FREEDOM FROM SPEECH MEANS I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT WITH NO CONSEQUENCES WHATSOEVER
also criticising someone publicly for being a prick and encouraging others not support it by giving the prick money until the prick finally decides to listen on their own terms and smartens up is censorship*
*magical censorship with no government aid whatsoever that is not at all forced like actual, legally-defined censorship
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” – Voltaire
Dickwolves: The Hamlet of our generation.
“The Penny Arcade guys are a modern example of Da Vinci and Shakespeare. They’re doing things in this creative medium that will be remembered for years to come.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
…well done, what with using this created drama to sell some shirts of your own.
/golfclap
“The shirt price is $1 over the actual cost. All of those dollars are being donated to RAINN. Thanks to the class acts at Penny Arcade for inspiring me and my Anonymous Graphic Design Genius friend to make this and use the profit to help make the world a better place.”
Yeah, because profiteering from rape culture and fundraising for a charity? TOTALLY THE SAME THING.
I really wish you’d get over yourself. Do you know what you sound like, taking someone’s words and poring over every inch of them, every syllable of them, so that you can interpret them in whichever manner is most convenient for you and your point?
Do you know what the phrase “some people” means? It typically means “SOME PEOPLE”, as opposed to “MOST PEOPLE” or even “ALL PEOPLE”. I don’t care, and neither do most people (see what I did there?), how your mother used those two words in a phrase.
Rape is a serious thing and it deserves to be talked about and regarded in a serious fashion; the way you are treating this situation is not serious, despite how powerfully you wish it were so. It is petty, and vindictive, and cheap.
“Do you know what you sound like, taking someone’s words and poring over every inch of them, every syllable of them, so that you can interpret them in whichever manner is most convenient for you and your point?”
WITHOUT A TRACE OF IRONY. Never fails to crack me up.
it’s kinda like those guys who scream about how everyone else is overreacting, somehow not realizing how red their own faces have become from rage.
What a sophisticated way to say “LOL U MAD”.
Calm as a millpond when I wrote that; same as I am now. Calm and more than a little amused and more than a little sad.
Oh, and outrageandsprinkles? Where’s the irony, exactly? It’s not like I took kirbybits’ post and deconstructed the everliving fuck out of it for my own purposes; I merely said it was a fallacy to do so.
Because you did, in essence, what you were accusing her of doing.
Howard’s word count: 134
Kirbytits: FUCKING 3005.
Melp you are so fucking dense. Pull your white knighting nose out of kirbys ass long enough to suck some oxygen into your brain.
HURR I CANT REFUTE ANY OF HIS POINTS SO ILL MAKE A DOWNRIGHT FUCKING ESOTERIC CONNECTION IMPLYING HE’S A HYPOCRITE.
Kirbytits! Because she is a female! And therefore has tits! And because being a woman is bad, I shall call her that in a way to ridicule her! Brilliant, sir, just brilliant.
Yeaah… long-windedness isn’t the issue here, fuckface.
you sure have a lot of nerve accusing someone other than yourself of whiteknighting.
Thank you for explaining it because I honestly could not bring myself to do it!
Except that he was saying that she was nitpicking and responding to every single little detail of the post, whereas his post was simply a reply.
If it’s “ironic” (Which even if he did nitpick and do what she did, that’s still not irony, it’s hypocrisy) then your post must be pretty “ironic” too, mine as well.
If TheGrapist’s comment means anything, I don’t think my comment was long-winded enough.
Except that’s fucking wrong. He didn’t “nitpick” anything. He put forward his point of contention,gave his reasons why he disagreed with it and gave his general opinion on the entire issue. FUCKING CONCISE AS FUCK. Whereas Kirby, as howard pointed out, hovered over every goddam word choice and managed to distort it into something symbolic of male chauvinism.
invisiblemoosenz
welp
outrageandsprinkles
Stop being cowards for once in your lives and actually address the content of someones post.
Kirbytits: You are the reason that modern feminism is a joke. We will never be treated like equals as long as so called “strong, independent warriors” like yourself get their panties in a twist over nothing and then call for the aid of whiteknight creeps. Also your rape story is highly suspect and I figure you are full of shit.
Cowards for once in my life? Fuck you. You don’t know the first thing about me.
And read all the posts where every one of us HAS addressed the concerns.
“Stop being cowards,” said the man who chose a deliberately provocative name in a discussion about rape, hiding behind anonymity to continue insulting a woman over the internet.
I call you cowards for not addressing the content of a post, and you attack my character. Typical. When did I say I was a man melp you coward. You can kiss kirbys ass all day if you want, she’s not going to give you a blowjob. As for hiding behind anonymity to insult a woman over the internet, guess what you were just doing to me.
Speaking of my username, why is kirby not talking about this:
or this?
what is it about penny arcade that has specifically attracted her ire?
I actually tweeted about the Whitest Kids U Know sketch (the first link) in relation to this – I’ve always found that skit to be a funny, smart satire of rape culture. The butt of the joke is rape culture and it highlights how stupid people sound when they try to defend it. I hadn’t seen the second sketch, but again – the sketch is taking the rhetoric of rape culture and applying it to a different group to highlight how ridiculous it is (as well as mocking online sexual predators). The punchline is people who commit sexual assault and rape, and I have no problem mocking those people and not giving them respect.
If a webcomic, and related t-shirt, are a “trigger” for you, please get off the internet and go seek professional help.
Otherwise, stop being a massively over-dramatic attention-whore working other massively over-dramatic attention-whores into a frenzy.
Thanks,
The people who can actually tell the difference between fantasy and reality, and laugh at themselves and the absurd.
So, I totally thought that the original post on why you were not going to PAX East was one of the best things I have read on the internet but this may win now. A few things:
1. You are awesome.
2. You are brave for continuing to post this stuff, knowing the kind of crap trolling you will have to deal with.
3. Thanks.
4. I am amazed at how well you handle trolls and generally clueless commentors. It amazes me.
5. Still awesome.
God forbid anything in this world exist that reminds you of your past experiences. My parent used to beat me with a coat hanger when I was younger. I am staring at a coat hanger right now, and…oh GOD…THE MEMORIES! THEY’RE TOO PAINFUL!!! WHY DO COAT HANGERS HAVE TO EXIST? WHY CAN’T WE BAN THESE ABOMINATIONS FROM OUR SOCIETY!?
Sorry you were raped and all, but if the phrase “raped to sleep by dickwolves” is a trigger for you, you have much deeper issues going on in your head and need psychiatric help.
How overly seriously can you actually take yourselves? You’re up in arms about a t-shirt that doesn’t even have the fucking word “rape” on it, about a comic that references a mythical creature that rapes comic versions of video game NPCs.
Fucking what? Go outside. Go buy yourselves a goddamned sense of humor. If you’re so fragile, why in the hell do you even read PA in the first place?
Thank you for trying to keep a civil attitude in this and staying open to discourse and discussion.
Too often today, discourse is thrown out in favor of finger waving anger – and even though there wasn’t a discourse (or at least, not a satisfying one) you stood for your principles and that should never be mocked.
You know, I thought I was part of the Penny Arcade audience, welcome at PAX, etc. It turns out they prefer guys like this: http://twitter.com/#!/ianfirth/status/31582490846044160
I always wondered if someone could compact as much hate and ignorance and cliche asshattery into 140 characters as other people I’ve known online. Apparently you CAN!
Seriously the oldest fall-back for being concerned/upset is that we’re all fat (??), unfuckable women. Clearly if we were getting laid and were skinny, this wouldn’t even be a concern.
This is the secret of the internets (and conciousness raising in general I think) – get the dominant culture to show it’s worst face and the need for change becomes clear.
Not only do the raging infants amplify your message by directing attention to your content, they make your case for you.
Want to see the real culture?
Read @kirbybits, or go to the source at /v/
Honestly? I peruse /v/ on occasion and I find those guys to be WAY more civilized than @HoodedMiracle, @DickWolverton, or their ilk.
Not always – I think they’re on their fourth rage thread today.
@DickWolverton has been documenting his efforts for the audience, and @HoodedMiricale is pretty mild compared to the response.
Hi Mr. Wolverton! Thanks for making everyone who might otherwise sympathize with Penny Arcade look bad!
trollface.jpg
Those guys really do make the rank and file PA fans look worse than they actually are. It’s important to keep that in perspective. On the PA boards, there are a fair number of people saying, “You know, I thought the comic was funny, but what came after wasn’t all that classy.”
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if one of these asshat accounts were actually Mike sockpuppeting. He seems to have way more than his fair share of simmering butthurt about all this.
Oh my god are you fucking serious.
Apparently this guy forgets that one of the PA founders is quite fat himself.
Yeah, but why would that guy want to have sex with Jerry?
WHOOOSH
the guy devalues what these women are saying by pointing out they are fat, implying fatness is bad. Jerry is fat. While people somehow care infinitely more about if a woman is fat than if a man is, I seriously don’t see that helping the guy’s case by insulting people based on their size when one of the men he supports is fat.
I just realized this wasn’t very clear:
“the guy devalues what these women are saying by pointing out they are fat, implying fatness is bad.”
To phrase it better, he’s saying that because they are FAT women, what they say is irrelevant. Given that Gabe’s business partner is also fat, this is a little…weird.
But he is saying that he thinks being fat isn’t attractive. So why would Jerry being fat be relevant?
I’m not entirely convinced that he is even taking the fact that Jerry’s size is an issue.
I’ve been pretty big in my time, and I’ve had co-workers complain about other co-workers, and calling them fat, even though I am much bigger than they were.
I do not feel that fat should be an insult for anyone, but I’m extra sadder that somehow it was okay for me to be fat, but not necessarily another girl.
Why is Jerry being fat even relevant? He is saying that being fat isn’t attractive, from his tweet you can tell he’s obviously not gay, so why would he find Jerry attractive in the first place?
You’re right; I cannot think of a single reason why saying fat people do not deserve to be fucked to a friend of a fat person.
“from his tweet you can tell he’s obviously not gay,”
Bisexuality: It exists.
I really am. You’re a walking oxymoron that’s making a big deal about something you’ve already decided, and your continued ass-hattery is an annoyance.
1. No one gives a shit you were raped. It happens daily, we know this; and what is done is done. And your “moments” don’t affect anyone but you. Let’s keep it this way.
2. No one made you read the strip in question. No one made you buy the shirt. No one is making you go to PAX.
3. You’ve decided you aren’t going to PAX. Why are you still talking about it?
I really don’t care if you reply to this. All you need to know is that there is a MAJORITY out here who don’t give two shits about you, your insignificant word press account (which each post resembles a Live Journal, good work on that) and that you want to stop this “rape culture” which is an impressive throwback to McCarthyism.
As a member of the MAJORITY, we just want you to go back to doing burlesque and being a quiet oxymoron.
You sure are putting a lot of effort into telling her how you don’t give a shit about her.
In order:
1) Fuck you for saying something to callous to someone who is sharing a personal ordeal on her personal space.
2) No one made you read this, no one made you comment here, no one made you choose to act on your pathetic privilege.
3) Because the issue is just a little bit more complex and ongoing than ‘Should I or should I not go to PAX’
I wonder what other MAJORITIES you belong to and what you might have to say to the MINORITIES. And fuck you again for having to put rape culture in quotation marks, and fuck you a third time for comparing it to McCarthyism.
Somehow knowing Mike has PTSD and how it affects him and his mind makes his non-concern towards others with PTSD and how his behavior may affect them so much worse.
I read your comments in the recent entries and am still amazed by your patients. When the rabid PA fans hunted this blog down to harass you for criticising Penny Arcade, inevitably turning to ad hominem attacks when they had no way of rebutting what you say, you somehow tolerated them and did a great job of explaining why this is wrong.
I’m sure this won’t end for a while, but you’re staying strong, and it is appreciated. I thank you for this.
*patience, not patients. Heh.
I think you need to go back and re-read those post replies. The “rabid PA fans” actually made a number of good points, all of which kirby danced around, or just stuck her fingers in her ears while yelling “lalalalaalaIcan’thearyou!”
No, actually, she didn’t.
The ones she did not reply to were DERAILMENTS. “what about the menz/what about fruitfucker/what about this unrelated topic etc”
The few truly valid points she did address, and some accepted. In the end, disagreements directed at KB were little more than insults, accusations of overreactions*, occasional threats, and attempting to thwart whatever she is saying by referring to This One Girl I Know or saying I’m A Girl And I Disagree, as if either of those completely neutralize everything she said.
*the irony here being that the biggest source of rage came from the ones accusing others of overreacting. This NEVER fails. It’s happened to me plenty of times: pointing something out (in a calm manner, no less) and having 10 people go apeshit on me for “overreacting”
You know it’s true, stop dancing around the truth.
I just wanted to come here and leave a comment to say that I agree fully with this. A lot of this stuff going on with PA is disappointing, enraging, bile-inducing and terrifying. It reminds me of a lot of things I’ve had to go through in my short time as a blogger/feminist on the internet, but seeing it writ large across the interbutts by two people I had come to respect as creators is just…ugh.
I would have liked to reach out to you via Twitter, but for very obvious reasons, I keep my twitter locked down so I can’t @ people who aren’t following me/accepted. Hopefully I get to talk to you at some point, there’s a lot of things I’d like to say, non-publically.
But you have my support, Kirby! This is just grossx3.
Thank you for continuing to speak out over the overwhelming volume of misogyny that’s poured out over this. I’ve watched the unspeakable level of vitriol come at you over twitter and I’m not sure I could handle something like that. I’ve had some pretty strong emotional reactions to this over the past few days and with the word that they’ll be giving refunds (now, will they REALLY, or is this more sarcasm? who even knows!), I’m getting ready to discuss this entire thing with the friend I was planning to go to PAX East with.
Seriously, thank you for continuing to raise your voice. It means quite a lot.
I really hope you’ll still be at PAX, reservoir. It’s not up to Gabe to decide who goes and who doesn’t and I don’t think that’s entirely what he’s saying here (though I do think the post was poorly worded). PAX is ours. We have as much right to it as anyone.
But I understand if you decide not to go. Hope to see you sometime either way.
It’s not up to them, but I think they’re making it pretty clear about who they give a damn about being there. I want to go, but I’m not interested in spending the entire weekend feeling like it’s me vs. everyone else there, or walking around looking at dickwolves shirts constantly. I’m not interested in spending my money and time off to go to a con composed primarily of Mike & Jerry and their attack dogs.
(and as the ratings on your comment indicate, clearly the trolls DO think the con is theirs and theirs alone, and they’re who I’m worried about. Mike and Jerry are two guys who did some stupid shit and that makes me furious. Their legions of raging misogynistic fans are the ones that scare the fuck out of me).
I’m really, really sorry that these assclowns have chased you off, then, but I understand if you don’t feel safe. You’ve gotta do what’s best for you.
I’ll be there in my Dickwolves Survivors Guild t-shirt on opening day, fuckers, so don’t think this is victory.
“We want PAX to be a place were everyone feels welcome and we’ve worked really hard to make that happen”
This is also bullshit.
When cozmiccaztaway ont twitter asked Gabe the following: “@cwgabriel If people already have the shirt and wear it to PAX, then what?”
Here is what Gabe said:
“@Cozmicaztaway I’ll be wearing mine to PAX.”
http://twitter.com/#!/cwgabriel/status/31519118456782848
This is the opposite of making the con safe. By its creator.
It would seem a bit like he’s trying to say “We want our con safe, as long as WE are not required to make any changes to our behavior to do so.
Which does sort of defeat the purpose. Glah.
Combined with his post on the site, it comes out to, “If you have a problem with this, talk to me at PAX, but I’ll be wearing the very thing that you find so offensive”.
I submit to you that a shirt that says “dickwolves” does not endanger anyone. Freed from context, it doesn’t even mean anything, like “stawberry anvils”. Or does the word dick automatigically conjure rape images? What about tall erect buildings thrusting up into the air? This is what women’s studies 101 does to a person’s brain. It melts it.
Yes, let’s free the shirt from the context that GABE AND TYCHO(or Mike and Jerry, just to stop the “Gabe and Tycho are fictional characters” argument in its tracks) put it in.
I’ll have to remember this if I ever decide to shoot someone. “Your honor, freed from context, a bullet is just a piece of metal. How could a piece of metal harm anyone?”