UPDATE 01/26/2011: In the third paragraph of this post, the target for the link on, “recent marketing decisions,” now leads to a 404 Error on Penny Arcade. That link originally pointed at the page where one could buy a Dickwolves t-shirt. That t-shirt is no longer for sale on Penny Arcade. Even if Mike and Jerry don’t want to acknowledge it (the shirt appears to have been removed without comment), it deserves to be acknowledged. Thank you, guys. Thank you for listening to whoever you listened to, and thank you to whoever that was who spoke up and managed to convey what I, and a lot of others, have been trying to convey for months. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
This has quite possibly been said 150 times already but my favorite argument ever ever ever is this:
“It’s just a SHIRT! It’s just a JOKE! It’s just a COMIC! IT’S NOT A BIG DEAL, LIGHTEN UP, STOP TAKING IT SO SERIOUSLY.”
followed (hilariously without a trace of irony) by this:
“Fuck you you ruined everything omg CENSORSHIP they had to take the shirt down BECAUSE OF YOOOOUUUUUUUU”.
Stop taking it so seriously indeed, amiright?
So, as this whole issue was stemmed from a simple indirect, albeit inappropriate joke, I can assume one of two things.
a) Everyone who has ever experienced a death (accidental or otherwise), an assault or attack resulting in personal injury, or any of the array of horrible crimes one human can inflict on another has the full right to complain when anyone anywhere says anything in poor taste related to said crime until they are reprimanded, censored, or otherwise punished to the degree seen fit by said individual. Such an outcome would see to it that all communication of anything more violent than a foul word would cease indefinitely. Moreover, all movies, books, music, comics, radio broadcasts, blogs, home movies, and stone carvings depicting such acts would be banned immediately.
or b) People no longer realize that the world does not revolve around them. Inappropriate comments will be made regardless of subject matter; such is the way of the internet, of comedy, and of life. I’m not trying to defend rape or any other profane and inexcusable act, nor am I trying to bash those who live to tell of such crimes; I am simply saying that shit happens. The world cannot suddenly fall silent because one out of 6 billion of us sees it proper.
Please read the responses of every single other person who put out the exact same comment about people who have issues with death and how that differs to rape jokes.
I have one serious issue with this.
I understand that you don’t like the shirt because of your opinion that it’s promoting rape culture. (I disagree on this point, but not the point of my comment.)
If you read Penny Arcade for any length of time, their humor has the capability to offend any number of victims, or ethnic groups, or anybody. Part of their charm is that nothing is really off limits.
You have every right to be offended, and chose not to support PA’s endeavors. You have every right to write about it if you so wish.
But why put pressure on them to remove the shirt? It seems like instead of accepting PA for what they are, and deciding that you don’t like it, you’ve decide that you want to like them, as long as they conform to what you want them to be.
Where is the line drawn? What if another group of people who had a family members murdered objects to a cartoon description of violence? Should they then remove all those shirts and comics?
Maybe some religious folks object to Dungeons and Dragons references because they feel they’re Satanic. Should the ‘Move Minor Standard’ shirt go?
I just dislike how it seems like you’re pressuring them into meeting your standard of what they should be.
How you have the patience to deal with these virtual attacks on your person I do not understand.
Some of us do appreciate what you are doing, KirbyBits. I hope someday Mike and Jerry and their incandescent with rage fans might understand why.
Also they have posted a response on their front page about the Dickwolves shirt. Fix your post about them not making a comment about it at all.
I think you should remove your shirt calling Paris “Just another bullshit town.” as I find that offensive. I’m not French but I feel that I should take up arms for them as I enjoy the city of Paris very much and the Eiffel Tower is a wonderful landmark and seeing it used in such a way is upsetting.
I see what you did there.
Jesus Christ… All parties involved are making way too big a deal about this. It was a stupid joke, nothing more, nothing less. Not implying anything, not promoting anything. Just a stupid joke.
Only woman who haven’t been in a burlesque strip show has no right to being called a feminist.
What the fuck are you trying to say here.
Okay, I was just made aware of this situation and I may have missed some things. Bear with me on this.
-PA creates the “Dickwolf”
-Said comic about the “Dickwolf” features NPCs being raped.
-Months later, PA creates a t-shirt featuring a “Dickwolf” as the mascot.
Now, I understand the but about rape not being something to joke about and some may find this offensive and/or triggering. But I have to ask; how is the shirt in and of itself triggering? It seems to me that anyone who is not familiar with PA, and thus hasn’t read the comic, would not see it as perpetuating rape. Unless someone equates penises with rape, which to me says there are some other issues at work.
While I applaud Kirby Bits for having the determination to continue responding to all these people, I’m going to have to ask that ONLY Kirby Bits respond to this, as she seems to be the only person actually reading it before hitting the “Post Comment” button. (That means you, Zebe; you’re contributing literally nothing.)
When I mention oranges and dogs, I mean that both are not meant to be raped, just as people are not. Rape is defined as forced sexual intercourse and abuse. There’s a reason they say, for instance, oil drillers in Alaska are “raping the environment”. Rape is not a human- or animal-only thing. Isn’t it a bit selfish to only fight for women?
“When I mention oranges and dogs, I mean that both are not meant to be raped, just as people are not.”
I agree that rape isn’t something anyone is “meant” for…but I’m not clear on why you’re connecting it to things that cannot give consent, and thus cannot be raped or sexually assaulted. That is not to say that a person cannot, assuming the person has a penis, put their penis inside an animal or a piece of fruit — it’s that there is no condition of the animal or fruit’s existence that would ever permit it to consent. It’s a different act, and there are different terms that carry different meaning to describe those acts (eg: bestiality).
Rape is sex without consent – I understand that the legal definition of a prosecutable rape varies from from country to country, but from a universal We All Have Rights Over Our Own Bodies point of view, rape is sex without consent. Sexual assault is someone touching you sexually without consent. These are things we teach kindergartners (it’s not okay if someone touches you in your ‘bathing suit area’), but somehow often forget by the time we’re adults — ironically, when we’re actually mature enough *to* consent.
“Isn’t it a bit selfish to only fight for women?”
I am not fighting only for women. I am protesting for myself and identifying myself as a rape survivor. I pointed out the fact that rape survivors are not just women in this post. I don’t speak for all rape survivors, and I don’t expect other rape and sexual abuse survivors to agree with me just because we have a shared, horrible, experience.
Your attack on the T shirt that many of us wanted to purchase is blatant Misandry (Look that up its a big word you might not understand it). In fact the npc who the T shirt is directly referencing was a MAN not a female. How do you get female from rape anyways?
Way to fight perceived discrimination with blatant misogyny, bro. Look that up, it has a whole extra syllable. Given your own estimation of our vocabularies, I’d understand if yours doesn’t cover it.
Blatant misogyny would be “I fucking hate women”, I do not know if there is a word to describe hate for a feminist… Anti-feminisity maybe? because unfortunately “blatant misogyny” is what feminists cry now a days when you try to question their atrocious misogynistic discriminations. Which is impossible to do, due to the average feminists substandard intellectual level. Most other woman who don’t complain about shitty T shirts being sold at a convention, have better things to do rather then to antagonize somebody until they take the shirt down a funny shirt and ruin it for everyone! Anyways pardon me for breaking my: only Ad Hominid in my arguments rule! I will argue the subject and refrain from name calling and topic avoiding as you have done in your reply.
It’s ad hominem, you’ll find. Wonderful punchline to a hilarious post.
“Blatant misogyny would be “I fucking hate women””
and yet
“Your attack on the T shirt that many of us wanted to purchase is blatant Misandry (Look that up its a big word you might not understand it)”
so to be blatantly misogynist you must outright claim to hate women. To be blatantly misandryc you do not need to claim to hate men (which was never done here at any point) but criticise a tasteless shirt design.
HMMM
Y’know, I really wanted one of those Dickwolves shirts, and now I can’t buy one from the PA site. Well… Cafepress, Wordans.com; hell, a permanent marker- All great ways to make our own t-shirts.
When I show up at PAX I’m going to be proudly wearing my own customized shirt to show my support for the valiant efforts of the PA Dickwolves, and I hope anyone that’s tired of today’s over-sensitive, over-reactionary talking (or typing) heads do the same. If people want to keep making a big deal out of the unthinkable horror of an off-color joke in a comic strip known for it’s off-color jokes, we will show them just how much their opinion matters by drowning them in a sea of fabric dickwolves.
I am glad you have chosen to exercise your freedom of expression, aka your freedom to be as much of a privileged ass as you personally choose to be.
I am sickened by the exploitation that is being promoted here by those who complained about the comic. This so called ‘fight against sexual violence’ is being used as leverage to promote a feminist agenda. I laughed at the dickwolves comic, but reading these comments makes me want to vomit. You’ll claim to be offended at a joke that ‘promotes rape’, but you’ll exploit the subject itself in order to make some kind of auperfluous point about rape as the product of a patriarchal society? Disgusting.
http://www.bitchesofdestiny.com/bitches/kirby.html
Self proclaimed?
What are you trying to say here? I am genuinely confused.
Perhaps John is suggesting that Kirby’s love of the Moscow Mule is somehow offensive to him? That’s the only possibility I’m coming up with.
It’s the bad pop songs, I just know it.
And this is why the title ‘feminist’ will never be respected, even by those that support women’s rights. You’re living the stereotype, congratulations. Just a heads up, but I think I saw some Darth Vader T shirts on sale too, a character linked with murder of entire planets. Naturally, these people are murderers just waiting to happen, so there’s a new harassment project for you.
Jokes are made about the holocaust, 9/11 and China’s treatment of humans all the time.
These are tragedies that affect millions of people, yet we can laugh about them.
Rape only affects one person per incident; are there really people out there not mature enough to laugh about it?
Uh, yeah, some of those jokes are pretty classless too and people do complain about them a lot as well.
Also, look up the stuff about Trigger warnings and PTSD.
I can’t help but wonder what some of Courtney’s favorite things are. I bet I can come up with all sorts of justifications for why I find them offensive, and each one of those justifications will be every bit as reasonable as her being offended by a mythical creature raping imaginary prisoners in a joke that’s funny because the virtual game avatar who -can- save them -won’t- only because he’s already met his quota.
After all, if I can be offended by something, then nobody else should ever have ability to find entertainment in it, right?
Except I wouldn’t do that, because I think a world with nothing remotely offensive in it sounds like a pretty god damned boring place to be.
I am sorry you don’t have a sense of humor, because that’s what this is, humor. Rape isn’t some special snowflake immune to humor. Everything from bestiality to death can be made into a joke and no one is laughing AT the subject, but rather the ridiculous context in which is occurs.
Let me tell you a small story. My wife was raped as a child. Not just once, many times in a domestic situation over the course of a few years. She wasn’t a grown woman, she was a child whose body was not yet ready for such harshness. She’s had issues and worked through them and is a strong person and feminist today.
And you know what? She laughed at this comic. She god a damn good chuckle. I told her about the shirts and she said I should get one. Then I told her about this whole situation and she got angry.
Throwing around your victim card and causing a tantrum to get your way is pathetic and it lowers your gender to fit every misogynistic stereotype.
I will never get my god damn shirt now.
I’m very sorry for what happened to your wife, and I’m glad she’s doing so well.
However: knowing one rape survivor does not make you an expert on all rape survivors. BEING a rape survivor doesn’t make you an expert on all rape survivors, either. And kirbybits never claimed to be — she pointed out, rightly, that rape survivors COULD find the shirts triggering and that she personally does, not that all rape survivors WILL.
This is a common derailing tactic, and no more appropriate than me claiming that my black friends make me an authority on African-American culture.
I’m not using this as an absolute, I’m just saying this is being carried on as if it’s of great offense to anyone who’s ever been raped. This example proves at least one case, if only one.
I feel it’s not right at all to taking something down because someone ‘might’ be offended. I grew up in a time when if something offended you, you just turned away, or threw a comment and moved on.
No one complained, or threw a fit. We dealt with it and moved on with our lives. Apparently that isn’t the age we live in anymore.
I like how you attack jokes and apparel because they’re “offensive” to people who have been raped, and you make this big fuss about how rape is evil and bad and traumatising and the worst thing ever ever, yet you do nothing to, I don’t know, stop actual rapists? All this energy you’re putting into stopping the sale of a fucking t-shirt could be put to use in stopping actual rapists or whatever.
Since you obviously think that you’re god, stopping actual rapes must be an easy feat. Go on, go get ‘em. Women everywhere will thank you, and there won’t be these “idiots”, as I know you think they are, questioning your obvious superiority, since even their simple minds can comprehend that that is a good thing!
Yes. Because people can only focus on one thing ever, and there’s no way kirbybits, or myself, or anyone here could be fighting on other fronts as well.
…oh, I’m sorry, was that a cut & paste? Huh. Let me check…no, no, guess that’s still valid. Seriously. The protest shirts kirbybits put up some time ago? The profits go to benefit the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center. If you actually listen to what she’s saying beyond the scope of this argument, you’ll see that she engages in a lot of other stuff. And so do I. And so do most of the people here.
Amazingly, one can object to an aspect of popular culture — one can even object to it STRENUOUSLY — without forgoing all other efforts to make a difference. And kirbybits wasn’t the organizer of the boycott, wasn’t the one to change PA’s minds, and has repeatedly said that she doesn’t deserve the praise or the blame for this. Delusions of godhood is a new accusation, though, so good on you.
“yet you do nothing to, I don’t know, stop actual rapists?”
Stopping rape is a huuuuge issue. I try to change what I can, and educate where I can, and support organizations that work in a variety of ways (social, legal, etc) to stop rape. The easiest way to stop rape is to convince potential rapists that it’s not a good idea to rape someone in the first place — either through potential legal consequences or an understanding and respect for other people’s consent. Those are hard things to just go out and fix. I do not think I am God or a god or have Magical Lady Powers. I know that what a single person is capable of fixing isn’t much. I don’t think the comments here have been particularly stupid. I do think some of them were made without a lot of thought or information, but not having thought about something before or knowing very much about a subject isn’t permanent.
Since you honestly believe you can only do one thing at a time why don’t YOU stop whining about posts on the internet and do what YOU can do to ‘stop actual rapists’?
This is ridiculously stupid.
It’s a joke. It’s being silly. HEY GUYS I HAVE A RAPEWOLF ON MY T SHIRT FROM PENNY ARACDE LOL.
That’s what it amounts to, it’s crude silly humour. Tell me, in high school did you cry whenever anyone made sex/rape jokes?(And don’t lie, they did)Did you stand up, and accuse them of supporting rape? No, you went ‘Oh, they’re joking’.
Grow up, this is mental immaturity on the level where you replace the word ‘sex’ with ‘hanky panky’, like a certain gentleman we know.
I don’t see what the problem is. If people who buy Dickwolf shirts advocate rape (and are, therefore, likely rapists themselves), then it’ll be easy to avoid rapists.
Because they’ll all be wearing fucking DICKWOLF SHIRTS.
Do you honestly believe this is about rapists exclusively buying Dickwolf shirts.
Instead of fighting for egalitariasm (equal rights) and freedom, you have chosen to fight against what you consider to be bad taste. You’ve helped no women with this campaign and your credibility is gone: I do not consider you a real feminist, or you would be spending your time on something productive and important.
Yes. Because people can only focus on one thing ever, and there’s no way kirbybits, or myself, or anyone here could be fighting on other fronts as well.
You don’t get to decide who the real feminists are. And if you really don’t see how popular culture can affect people, I think you’re damned ignorant.
I’m a woman and reading people like Kirby writing about PA’s behaviour has been helpful to me.
OH NO SOMETHING I DISAGREE WITH.
I SHOULD COMPLAIN UNTIL I’M BLUE IN THE MOUTH RATHER THAN JUST DEAL WITH IT.
Actually, responding *is* how I deal with it. It seems like what you mean is, “just be silent about it.”
To all the people complaining about censorship, I ask this.
Say I ran a store in your town. Say the store was selling $productyoulike and I gave great service and you were a regular customer. Then one day you came into the store, and during a casual conversation I made a statement that was offensive to you. Perhaps I said something derogatory about you or your family, your race, your favourite sports team, whatever it was. You were so put off by my words that you chose not to come into my store, ever. Perhaps other people chose not to come into my store as well, and perhaps I chose to change what I chose to say because I did not want to lose further customers.
Was your decision to not come into my store actually censorship? Or is that simply voting with your dollar?
Apples and oranges. Censorship is defined as the act of censoring something, which is to say supervising the morality of others. If you use your influence or bitch enough(whatever) to get something taken down on moral or ethical grounds…..THAT IS CENSORSHIP. If you want something gone, banned, taken down etc on moral or ethical grounds…THAT IS CENSORSHIP. You don’t have to be the US Government to censor something.
No one forced Penny Arcade to remove the shirts. No one even threatened legal action. What they DID was apply social pressure, which is an exercise of free expression, and Penny Arcade chose a response to that social pressure to preserve their bottom line.
What you’re seeing is the free market and the open forum in action. NOT censorship. American Greetings threatening to sue over the Strawberry Shortcake strip, now — THAT was a use of legal force to suppress expression.
Pressure was exerted on PA to take down their merchandise. It was done so on moral/ethical grounds. That is what censorship is. You can play the “well I didn’t actually make them take it down MYSELF” to try and wiggle out of the fact you supported and encouraged them to censor themselves. If you want to encourage censorship that is you business but don’t try to weasel out of the fact you are doing so.
“Pressure was exerted on PA to take down their merchandise. It was done so on moral/ethical grounds. That is what censorship is.”
Incorrect, assuming you accept the definition of censorship:
“Censorship is suppression of speech or other communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the general body of people as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.”
I am not a government, a media outlet, or a controlling body. The only thing I control is the content of my one (1) blog.
If it seems ridiculous to you that one blog would be responsible for Penny Arcade taking down some merch, we agree! Because I’m not responsible, either for attempting to censor them, *or* for their decision to stop selling some merch. It’s why in this very post you’re commenting on, I said, to Penny Arcade, “Thank you for listening to whoever you listened to, and thank you to whoever that was who spoke up and managed to convey what I, and a lot of others, have been trying to convey for months.” Because I was pretty damn sure the person they listened to wasn’t me. Even optimistically assuming they’re even aware my blog exists, I’m one of tens of thousands of fans who complained, and one of many people in the video game industry who was participated in the boycott.
Again you use the “well I didn’t actually make them take it down MYSELF”. If you encourage someone to censor themselves based on your moral/ethic guidelines….you support censorship. If you think something should not be seen, read, sold, etc based on your moral/ethical objections, you are promoting censorship. You can say you didn’t want them to censor themselves but you did. Otherwise you wouldn’t be glad the shirt stop being sold.
I would say I don’t think you know what “censorship” means, but I just put a very common definition of it in my comment above, so I’m not sure why you’re mis-using it.
Person or entity puts for Opinion A.
Another person puts for a counter-argument, Opinion B.
Using the framework you’re clinging to, anyone who ever changed their mind or revised something because of new information presented by someone else was doing so because they bowed to censorship.
Ironically/hilariously, that would imply the Bill of Rights (and all other amendments to the Constitution) is censorship. The Bill of Rights which contains the Freedom of Speech amendment that you claim my blog post somehow violated.
Oh please stop trying to strawman my arguments.
Censorship is defined as the act of censoring. Censoring is when a person defines what is right and wrong for other people based off their morals/ethics. You used your own moral/ethic guidelines to put pressure on someone to censor themselves. Did you march into PA office and destroy the shirts and take them off the story yourself? Well obviously not. Guess what you don’t have to carry out the act its self to support censorship.
It is really simple. Did you want PA to not sell certain merchandise because it offended your morals/ethics?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censorship
Defintion 1
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censors
Defintion 2
There is a difference between not liking something and being offended about it and not liking something and being offended by it enough that you don’t want anyone to have access to it.
Seriously, your own link provided by you gives this for censors:
1. an official who examines books, plays, news reports, motion pictures, radio and television programs, letters, cablegrams, etc., for the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds.
2. any person who supervises the manners or morality of others.
Again, I’m not an official. I’m not even supervising the manners or morality of others. I’m not an employee at Penny Arcade, I’m no one’s supervisor there. I have no authority or supervision over Penny Arcade. I’m not a censor, I’m not censoring them. I am incapable of it, because I lack the authority. I’m a fan who wrote some words about why I wasn’t a fan anymore. If I was blocking every commenter on this blog that didn’t agree with me, *that* would be censorship — I have the ability to supervise and control the moderation queue of this blog. But that’s the level of control and suppression you’re saying I have over Penny Arcade, and that’s incorrect.
For anyone in the peanut gallery, this sort of, “You are wrong because of [incorrect statement]” “I disagree, [correction]” “No but you are wrong because of [same incorrect statement]” carousel can go indefinitely. It gets boring, and it can be draining, especially when in the midst of trying to live your life and do other things besides try to teach someone, for example, the difference of meaning between censorship and individual criticism. This is why I have the Required Reading section, and it’s why I’m drafting up a comment policy that’ll clearly outline some basic Rules of Fair Play re: Arguing With Each Other Here. Because it is not my job, or hobby, to Inception word definitions into peoples’ heads.
But you are. You say if they don’t adhere to your moral/ethical guidelines they are supporting rape culture and making light of rape survivors. You can be as obtuse as you want about it but it won’t change the facts.
So I ask again did you want PA to stop selling merchandise based on your own moral/ethical standards?
My question wasn’t answered.
Do you think kirbybits should shut up about dickwolves? If so, are you supporting censorship?
No she can complain how ever much she wants to about it.
“Pressure was exerted on PA to take down their merchandise. It was done so on moral/ethical grounds. That is what censorship is.”
Maybe you shouldn’t be involved in semantics arguments when you don’t know the meanings of words, Mrs. Palin.
No maybe you shouldn’t. Go read the definitions I posted.
Lead here from -BorderHouse- and now finally making my way through the sludge. I fully support your objections to the matter at hand and I’m immensely amazed with you and others for puttin’ up with the genetic filth. I’m guessing there’s no great moderation (that the filth can also incorrectly complain about as a form of sensorship)?
Meanwhile I’ll also vote, with my bandwith and dollars, by ignoring Penny Arcade, PAX and directing others I know to articles like this. I’m sure some of them will feel pleased as they also found the dickwolves strips henious.
And on one hand I hope more and sensible gaming coverage outlets will signal boost the controversy of Penny Arcade’s bullshittery–complete with their online harrassment too.
Ansi8
“I’m guessing there’s no great moderation (that the filth can also incorrectly complain about as a form of sensorship)?”
I’m approving comments that seem to be on topic in some way, and that don’t contain hate speech or other signs that the person is a troll, not a critic. Some of those, I’m still letting through, because phrases like, “harlot slut succubus,” are just too good to not share with the world.
When I’m done with the Global Game Jam and have some spare time, I’ll do a little wrap-up post, with data about the actual trolling stuff directed at me, both here and on Twitter, with pretty charts and things. Also, with a more in-depth explanation of what happened, since I’m currently getting *way* too much credit for effecting change (spoiler alert: there are people more important than me in the video game industry who did a lot more and are actually responsible for getting Mike and Jerry and Robert to agree to take the merch down…all I did was write a little bit and then point out on Twitter that the merch was missing).
Personally, I’d like to see the Dickwolves Survivors Guild t-shirts marketed/distributed on the Penny Arcade website (with profits donated to the Boston Area Rape Crisis Centre). 5$/shirt more in donations and an interesting narrative.
Perhaps the Bitches of Destiny could do a little lampoon at PAX.
Something like these folks: http://www.thescandelles.com/aboutus.htm
Moral outrage is great n’ all, but subversion seems like so much more fun.
Samefriending it up here, but I’d love to see a reimagining of the “Grapist” sketch by WKUK with Jerry, Mike, and Robert as the three clueless admen.
giggles.
WORLD OF YES.
Adding to my own little corner of this comment board.
Dear Kirbybits, would you consider writing a case study on social media and activism?
I have a bagazillion windows open following the discussion on blogs, twitter, penny-arcade, 4chan, etc. and it’s absolutely brilliant how your voice is being amplified a thousand-fold.
On trolls: http://tinyurl.com/2bb6r7c
Ok, I can’t be pained to read into every detail that has been covered so far, but from what I understand this is what occurred:
PA releases comic pertaining to mascot “Dickwolf”
Does well, make shirt,
Killjoy-Feminist-Types miss the joke; are offended,
Rant to PA, get shirt removed,
Internet explodes.
Something about rape in there and it not being funny. Ok, got it.
Firstly, do you really assume that your common rape victim would even GET the joke? It’s a rather famous web comic, yes, but a web comic nonetheless. You are in the minority, and fucked over the majority.
Secondly, because something makes light of an issue does not make society take light of it. At some point you state that rape is only serious to society if it involves a violent act. If that’s so, why is there so many educating advocates for marital rape, date rape, etc. I think the only lack of education going on in this argument is by Kirbybits, who has no idea of the efforts against rape being taken in this day. However, I digress. The idea that everyone must adhere to whatever may offend someone, because their specific issue is taken lightly, will lead to the fall of ANY society. I, personally, think that complaining to the point that the minority is heard over the majority, is outrageous, and you obviously take it lightly. Lest you be a hypocrite, you will stop it. Or you truly don’t mean a main argument you make about rape being taken lightly.
And finally, I hope it soothes you at night to know that you removed a harmless T-Shirt from an internet store. And if you truly, truly believe that it would have caused any damage to anyone, caused any person to be sexually assaulted, to cause the pain of rape victims to be lessened at all, then you have more issues than being a rape victim to settle.
And yes, I found it “man”datory that I “man”splained my argument on the simplest level. And just so you can say I’m trying to derail the topic, when wo”men” begin pulling the same weight as a man at a job, when I can go up to the most frail, dainty wo”man”, as a “man”ager, and tell them to lift a heavy object, and not see the look of “Are you serious? But I’m a wo”man”", is the day that you will see wo”men” treated equally in the workplace. But we know only men can be sexist, and can’t be raped, right?
“PA releases comic pertaining to mascot “Dickwolf”
Does well, make shirt,
Killjoy-Feminist-Types miss the joke; are offended,
Rant to PA, get shirt removed,
Internet explodes.”
Are you aware you left out the part where they openly mock rape victims and turn their issues into a strawman argument for the purposes of ridicule? Or where they actually mock trigger warnings?
“Firstly, do you really assume that your common rape victim would even GET the joke? It’s a rather famous web comic, yes, but a web comic nonetheless. You are in the minority, and fucked over the majority.”
So rape victims aren’t interested in video game culture Maybe rape victims should just stick to Garfield?
“But we know only men can be sexist, and can’t be raped, right?”
You’re an idiot.
Fairly recently I spoke with two victims of past rapes. Both read Penny Arcade. We play video games together occasionally.
Both of them told me that this is “fucking ridiculous.” They got the joke that PA was making, they found it reasonably humorous. Both told me that humor is one of the best ways to cope, and having people kill the humor by bring up rape just makes it a whole lot worse.
It seems no coincidence that the only people I’ve seen actually get angry at these comics and the shirt are those who didn’t get the joke in the first place.
Shorter this: Well I Know Another Person From Your Group Who Disagrees!
Hi. I got the joke. I thought the strip was great. I thought their reaction to a little criticism made them monsters.
And different rape survivors deal with things differently. You can’t ask one rape survivor to represent everyone who’s ever been raped any more than you can ask one woman to represent all women, one gay man to represent all gay folks, or one black person to represent every black person in the world. It’s another classic derailing tactic, as kirbybits has already noted.
“Hi. I got the joke. I thought the strip was great. I thought their reaction to a little criticism made them monsters.”
Exactly. Though I didn’t think the strip was great; I actually had no real feelings toward it at all.
I got the joke, I even laughed. Pretty much everything else they’ve done is shitty and terrible. Kaylee and I are hardly alone in this sentiment.
I got the joke when they made the strip, and I laughed at it, even though it made me feel a little queasy too.
I knew, though, that the image of being “raped to sleep” would be hugely disturbing for some people. I figured it would be a small deal, the PA guys would clarify and say, “Hey, we stand by our comic, but we didn’t mean to upset anyone.”
INSTEAD, they mocked rape victims. And THAT is when they lost me. NOT because of dickwolves, like everyone keeps saying, but because of the PA guys’ utter lack of compassion, and now their tacit encouragement of the threats and insults being hurled at anyone who found the rape imagery unnerving.
First counterargument – Read : I’ve yet to see any “open mocking of rape victims” in it. What I saw was a JOKE. It wasn’t even out of the norm of PA taste. I mean, really, are you the type that gets offended if you hear someone say a childish sexism joke referring to a woman’s cooking ability?
Wait, you probably are. Because it’s JOKES that destroy the fabric of society. But now that you’ve made me go and read the comic, I feel the sudden urge to RAPE PEOPLE TO SLEEP.
Does it make you feel better to hear your argument is legitimate now?
Second counterargument – Read : Minority controlling majority. Implying that the number of people that read PA that have been raped outnumber the amount of people that have not been raped is, well, retarded. But by your logic, them printing the Dickwolves comic will soon cause every person in the WORLD to become a rape victim. Including the rapists.
But I digress, you attempted to subvert the entire argument made in that point by saying rape victims don’t play games. Reread the argument, realize you’re retarded, kill self.
Third counterargument – Rape victims lose sense of sarcasm. Scientific fact.
In conclusion: Your argument is that because 1 web comic made light of rape victims, the ENTIRE WORLD will become RAPIST RAPE VICTIMS UNAWARE OF SARCASM. But you’ll come back that I missed the point, which for the love of Christ I hope I have, lest I found the source for the liberal shitfest that the US has spouted from.
Interesting that you prompt me to read and yet you have failed to either search for the stuff I’ve referred to or ask for it.
“What I saw was a JOKE. It wasn’t even out of the norm of PA taste.”
So that is a no, that you weren’t aware of the ridicule and mocking of trigger warnings?
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/10/6/ – Check out Tycho’s first post. And before you say “It’s a JOKE” I know it’s a fucking joke. And it’s one in poor taste that is mocking a group of people who are already marginalized plenty.
“But now that you’ve made me go and read the comic, I feel the sudden urge to RAPE PEOPLE TO SLEEP.”
Yep, I totally said that comic makes people want to rape people to sleep.
“Implying that the number of people that read PA that have been raped outnumber the amount of people that have not been raped is, well, retarded.”
Yep, I totally said that, too. It’s also completely relevant to the point!
But by your logic, them printing the Dickwolves comic will soon cause every person in the WORLD to become a rape victim. Including the rapists.”
“Third counterargument – Rape victims lose sense of sarcasm. Scientific fact.”
You’re still an idiot.
“In conclusion: Your argument is that because 1 web comic made light of rape victims, the ENTIRE WORLD will become RAPIST RAPE VICTIMS UNAWARE OF SARCASM”
Yep, because that one comic was the first thing EVER to be so witty and clever to make jokes about rape!
Also, please don’t say ‘retarded’.
This is not an attack on freedom of speech.
This is merely a case of someone who is horrendously easily offended, decided to complain and soapbox, and eventually caused the creators to edit their content/sales.
I don’t really have a problem with complaining about your personal concerns, but the blog soapboxing and organization of a boycott (I know it wasn’t this blogger) is hilariously absurd, not to mention annoying and malicious for no reason other than self satisfaction.
Please, stop making feminists look bad. There are plenty of feminists on the news that take care of that.
“malicious for no reason other than self satisfaction.”
Way to trivialize rape survivors and PTSD.
Hi, are you a rape survivor?
If yes: I’m sorry that happened to you, but you have no place telling other survivors how they should react to the trivialization of rape and whether or not they are qualified to be angry about something regarding rape.
If no: you have no place telling survivors how they should react to the trivialization of rape and whether or not they are qualified to be angry about something regarding rape.
I think the assumption that a joke (especially one involving something as absurdist as a group of rapists called “dickwolves”) by two webcomic artists trivializes rape is quite insane.
Like I said, I have no problems with people voicing their concerns. The problem I have is when you blow up the issue out of proportion (the issue being this joke) and use it as a means of soapboxing, even though you’re damaging not only the image of the artists, but also attempting to financially harm the artists by spreading a boycott.
The hypocrisy is palpable.
Yeaaah… no.
The guys put out a product that reflected some seriously questionable ethics.
This upset people and they decided not to support this decision by giving them money.
The Penny Arcade business will not be destroyed or even seriously dented by this situation. At most it may lower their January profits VERY slightly (though the increased traffic PA has gotten as a result of this would be made up in their advertisements impressions) and I wouldn’t shed a tear for them if it did, ’cause they are still plenty rich anyway.
What the hell happened here?
Why is everyone arguing over whether or not Dickwolves have qualities other than rape. Let me get this straight. Dickwolves are mythological creatures who have dicks for arms, legs, heads, every limb is an erect phallus.
….
….
How can anyone take that seriously? They weren’t created to make some deep point about rape or about anything at all!
They’re constructions used for the purpose of making a joke about video games. That is all.
Also, it really pisses me off how the trolls are actually killing this argument by giving Kirbybits and the rest a reason to ignore our legitimate responses.
I don’t know if I’d celebrate just yet.
“Asked Mike [about the dickwolves shirt being missing] when he was drawing live, his response apparently (I missed it) was, “Good question.”
He also drew a smiley face.”
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=135901
Uppity People: Disrespecting important topics by betraying their shameful, selfish intentions via arbitrary, ignorant picking and choosing over irrelevant social minutiae since forever.
This is some great debate. I haven’t seen such priapic discussion before, honestly, this was a great read.
“Besides which, if the creators of Penny Arcade are allowed to openly speak about topics, they are allowed to be criticized for such. Which was done. If they decided to take down the shirt, that was their own decision–if influenced by these posts, it’s still not akin to being ‘forced.’” – Dennis Farr
This summed it all up. Kirby complained/noted/pointed out/announced rape is wrong to PA and they responded in taking the shirt down. PA didn’t have to, they could of left the shirt up, but this is why we can’t have nice things; fear of repercussion. If they left the shirt up, I can assume Kirby would of possibly kept at it, someone would report this to yahoo and “Internet Website Refuses to Take Down ‘TEAM RAPE’ T-Shirt” would be headline of the day.
I’m a devout catholic. My father is a minister. If my dad read your profile, Kirby, he wouldn’t consider you a ‘strong, independent, no-holds-bar woman’. He would call you a harlot slut succubus that need mind her own business.
jw, why was that part about your dad necessary for this comment? What exactly is that meant to add?
I don’t know who’s the bigger idiot here, you for complaining about a shitty T-shirt or PA for actually listening to you.
it wasn’t even a rape joke.
one of the characters mentioned the horrible things that happen to him, one of which is rape.
The actual joke is that the game only lets you rescue 5 slaves, and the rest you aren’t supposed to care about, leave them to their horrible fate, because hey, video game logic. Any sort of violent torture could have been replaced for rape, and the joke would be the same, this is how we know it’s not a rape joke, just a joke where rape is mentioned. you can then try to say since it could have been replaced by something else, then it SHOULD have been, but you’d still be wrong. rape victims do not have a monopoly on victimhood or trauma. If he got shot every night then a returning iraq war veteran would say it offends him. if he got lynched every night then african americans could complain. That’s the point, rape is horrible, he should have been rescued but the game won’t allow it.
The shirt just pokes fun at the absurdity of a creature such as a dickwolf. those who see it as RAPEWOLVES are reading too much into it because they cling to their victimhood.
Shame on penny arcade for caving.
As for you kirby, by reading the comments you’re kind of childish. Any time someone brings up a valid point, you just put your hands over your ears and scream STOP DERAILING READ THIS LINK. Pathetic.
And then Penny Arcade mocked rape survivors and put out shirts siding with the rapist dickwolves rather than simply ignoring the initial criticism. Do you see how their escalation of the situation made it a MUCH bigger problem than it had to be?
I hear what you’re saying — it is silly to assume the character of one means all. However, the only context we are given for dickwolves is rape. There hasn’t been a series to show that there is more to dickwolves than their tendency to rape. Therefore, the only symbolism we have for them is rape.
Let’s look at it another way: If I made up a creature called a “Jewbird” and the only mention of Jewbird is in reference to torturing Jews to the point of death, and then I put Jewbird on a t-shirt in “team mascot” style, what am I trying to achieve? “Haha, Jewbird kills Jews. That’s so funny.” I think a Jewish person might say otherwise.
BUT, if I previously a comic about Jewbird in which Jewbird is working in a heavily populated Jewish area where Jewbird is speaking Yiddish or something, then there is another symbolic idea that we can attach to Jewbird — Jewbird is Jewish.
That’s my point: we have absolutely no other context for dickwolf other than “I was raped to sleep by dickwolves.” Plural. Meaning more than one. I can’t think of any other quality that is POSITIVE a dickwolf may have.
We have the symbolism of dick wolves as a team mascot, I think it is safe to assume no team named team rapist would ever fly in any form of public sport. But like I said it doesn’t matter, you don’t assume all members of a group are bad based on the fact that you know some of them are bad. Just because a dick wolf by nature has multiple members doesn’t imply it must be a rapist as a result.
If I made a team, and I chose its mascot to be a Nazi, what is your gut reaction?
All nazis are nazis! Stupid comparison. They aren’t called RAPEWOLVES or NAZIWOLVES.
The MAIN THING a Dickwolf does is be ridiculous in it’s own right because it’s a wolf with dicks for legs. It’s mere existence is ridiculous! It’s a joke in it’s own right. We know one thing for sure about ALL Dickwolves: they are all a ridiculous joke because they have dicks for legs. At least two of them are rapists.
The ironic thing here is that the original comic was an admonishment for sketchy moral codes.
Haha. I’m trying to make a point, which is in the comment below. I’m not comparing dickwolves to nazis. The point I am trying to make is that just because you make something a “team mascot” makes it okay.
I understand the comic, but thanks again for clarify. The whole thing is that the only reference to dickwolf is in relation to rape, and to put it on a t-shirt without giving any other symbolic connect to what sort of moral code a “dickwolf” may follow deems it as inappropriate.
doesn’t make it okay.*
There needs to be an edit option. >.>
The first mentioning of dickwolf was in a comment where it was connecting it to rape. So you’re saying that even though the only symbolic connection we have with a dickwolf is rape, by putting it as an imaginary team’s mascot, it’s suddenly okay? Please explain this logic further. The mascot didn’t exist first – its connection to rape did.
Again you go on the assumption all dick wolves would have to be rapist just because some are. The fact they can be a team mascot implies they have some other function other than rape. You don’t stereotype a whole group because of a bad thing you know some of them did.
What is their other function then? What other sort of symbolism should I put onto a dickwolf? Preferably one that everyone everywhere can understand without explicit explanation.
Uh don’t put any symbolism in them? Like I said it doesn’t matter what their function is on a lore based level. They are a plot device made to be absurd and get a punchline across. It is silly to assign some symbolic meaning to them or assume that dick wolves can mean nothing but rape.
The whole idea that PA is supporting “rape culture” with a dick wolves t shirt is nothing short of inane and ridiculous, because the whole idea is based on assumption and personal prejudice.
I agree with everything you just said, minus the part that they are not symbolic of anything. I don’t think the PA guys were trying to perpetuate rape culture, but unfortunately that is what they are inadvertently doing. I’ll say it again, I do not think they sat down with the intention, “how can we make light of rape and upset all the sexually assaulted readers we have?” No, that’s just silly.
However, people took offense to it. A lot of people. So much so that random people on the internet are having months and months long discussion and argument about it. Obviously that has to mean something. For victims of rape, they voiced their concerns. But the PA guys ignored it. They made a t-shirt of their creation. A creation that does not have any other connection to anything other than rape. Yes, the comic was meant as satire that you save only five people and leave the rest to torture. Yes, it shows how silly the game mechanics and idea of these quests are. I get it.
BUT, the fact is that a LOT of people have their hands up in the air, making a big deal out this, because it’s a big deal to them. People who think the dickwolf is funny aren’t really looking into the deeper rhetoric of what it means to a rape survivor: it means that the rape they experienced is joke-worthy. And to see it on a tshirt is like throwing salt in the wound.
Whether or not that was their original purpose should no longer be part of this discussion. The explicit results are that a lot of people are upset, that the deeper meaning of it is being overlooked because “people can’t take a joke.” It’s insensitive, despite its original purpose as being ironic.
We were also given context for the Dickwolves via the main post that went with the original comic. They represented the horrors of the npcs in a virtual world and the apathy the player felt so long as he had fulfilled his quest. The context stated that they were merely a device to make you want to help the npc. It could very well have been anything else; “Everynight we are murdered by the dickwolves.” “Everynight the dickwolves steal our clothes.” They chose rape to further emphasise the horrors and to further emphasise the complete apathy of the player regarding a world he knows is not real.
Well they obviously have the ability to function as a mascot for sports teams. But it doesn’t matter what qualities they may or may not have. People are assuming ALL dick wolves are rapist just because they have multiple phallus and the fact you know some of them are.
You said what you said I didn’t put words in your mouth.
Tell me one other thing Dickwolves are known for (with the exception of an in-joke at a con which the bulk of society is not privy to) and you are halfway towards having a point, there.
“Although the two are interrelated, black comedy is different from straightforward obscenity in that it is more subtle and does not necessarily have the explicit intention of offending people”
PA’s comic was intended to be a joke. The whole t-shirt thing was based on that joke. Not on an inner desire to commit rape. Yeah, it had the possibility of someone (you) getting offended, but that’s black comedy for you. It runs on the border and knows that maybe a hypersensitive person someone out in the world will take it to heart, but it has no intention on commiting the act it is making fun of. It’s literally just a joke. Like Raface said, it’s mountains out of anthills.
And before you come back at me with it, yes I did read the derailing for dummies before I posted this, specifically the “It’s just the internet” bit. All that looks like to me is someone who’s paranoid typing about how the world is out to get them and are full of rapists and murderers because someone has the audacity to make a joke out of it.
In fact, a lot of it is a load of bollocks chock full of logical fallacies about, literally, any counter point anyone can come back with. It’s essentially a form of dismissing an arguement without any effort whatsoever, “proving” to yourself that you, and only you, are right and they are wrong, essentially stunting your own growth as a human being because you refuse to look at something from any other perspective, even though that very perspective may hold something vital.
But that’s not even the point I wanted to drive at.
Look at this picture
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Hopscotch_to_oblivion.jpg
Do you think anyone actually jumped?
T-shirts don’t cause rape, you’re just using something irrelevant to further your own agenda. And even that is horrendously flawed, because you are the most hypocritical person I have ever met. You claim to support feminism, but you’re using the very things you claim to be fighting against for your own personal gain?
Out of respect, I won’t say what I feel like saying about the rape you endured, but I have honestly never come across a street fucked up enough that people promote public rape.
But what does it even matter? You’ll just dismiss this arguement and refuse to be a human being just like the rest of us.
What a waste of time.
“You claim to support feminism, but you’re using the very things you claim to be fighting against for your own personal gain?”
In a comment full of out-of-left field stuff, I found this even more out of left field. Who with the what now? What are you talking about?
I bet this is the same tired burlesque derail that surfaced on twitter for a while
I would tend to agree. Apparently feminists are now required to hate burlesque. We are also never allowed to wear skirts and must all wear our hair in a boys’ regular cut.
I didnt realize this was a feminist platform. That also was obviously not his point. And just so you dont say that I cannot know that, Ill say it as my own: Your friend moonlights as a burlesque star. She previously applauded the lack of ‘booth babes’ at pax, stating that the organizers showed that they cared about the safety of the women. This implies two things. One, that women who are show more skin than the average are in danger of being attacked in some fashion. The second is that the sort of people that go to the event in question would include such people.
If this is true, couldnt it be said that an attendee of a burlesque show be capable of the same behavior?
Again, I didnt know this was a feminist platform, but no one said feminists had to do anything. If you want to promote your misandry, do it where people are likely to care. Although I suppose it might as well be here, since you have your circle of friends to high five you after your retort.
Your response is disingenuous. There are Feminism 101 links over on the top right. Yes, this is a feminist blog. Either you lack basic reading comprehension or you’re just trolling.
No one said that showing skin leads to rape. In fact, that’s one of the fallacies of rape culture — the idea that women who dress or act ‘provocatively’ are asking for it. Booth babes are problematic for a lot of reasons, but not solely because they show a little skin. Honestly? I’m not part of burlesque culture, but I have known women involved with it and I get the impression it’s a lot more clever and creative than the sexist promotional schemes dreamed up by some companies.
And finally, I don’t have a problem with men. I have a problem with complete and utter walking cocks.
Given the topic of hand, the likelihood of the author’s being a feminist person was pretty high.
Anyway, regarding that burlesque thing. Hmmm, here is the thing, in my view: a booth bate is just there as eye-candy; the only thing she is hired to do is look pretty/hot/whatever, smile, and let dudes take pictures with them.It’s an honest job, of course, but, setting aside any problematics of calling them “babes,” it’s a job that doesn’t allow them to show or express any other qualities they have.
I’ve never been to a burlesque show, but my understanding of burlesque is that, while the performers do exhibit their bodies in a sensual way, their agency is more explicit, and other artistic skills are at play: dance, acting and such.
Your comment “no one said feminists had to do anything” is very troubling. Feminists and other activists for social change have to *do* things to combat oppression. The fact that you don’t see that oppression and dismiss their concerns as man-hating (misandry) doesn’t automagically make these concerns any less valid.
I meant to say “Do with anything” By this I meant that I wasnt aware that feminisim had been brought in as a part of this topic. Then again, as you pointed out, this is a feminist blog. My bad.
That aside, you missed my point. I know the difference between a person being exploited for their looks(a booth babe. Hell, its in the name) and a legitamate form of art(burlesque). My point was, does a depraved person capable of violence against women know or care about the difference? And if this is true, then I can understand why people see the irony in being a part of burlesque culture without seeing the apparent danger.
How is that comment “Out-of-left field”? I was addressing the actual issue that started all this. The Dick Wolves tshirt.
I digress for two sentances, and you focus solely on that.
“But what does it even matter? You’ll just dismiss this arguement and refuse to be a human being just like the rest of us.”
I called that good, didn’t I?
Way to single out one aspect of his entire post and ignore everything else he said. I’ll agree that the “personal gain” bit is strange, but he made an excellent point. Penny Arcade was just making a joke. You were offended by it, and as far as I can tell, wanted them to remove the shirt simply because of that. Don’t even try to tell me that a fucking t-shirt referencing a webcomic is somehow going to cause rape ANYWHERE in any reasonable circumstance. It’s just a shirt. It’s just a joke.
I really can’t believe you’re throwing a hissyfit over some childish humour.
You made a mountain out of anthill, and you actually want people to respect you for that?
I really can’t believe you’re coming to someone’s blog to throw a hissyfit over her opinion. You actually want people to give a damn what you think?
You have got to be kidding me.
You think we’re just throwing a tantrum over what kirbybits thinks?
We wouldn’t even be here if she hadn’t decided it was necessary to actually prevent us from buying these shirts.
She pressured PA to pull them by making them seem like rape supporters.
You should get your facts straight. We were not the first to attack. She was.
“We wouldn’t even be here if she hadn’t decided it was necessary to actually prevent us from buying these shirts.”
I disagree — you wouldn’t be here if you hadn’t mistaken me as somehow responsible for Penny Arcade’s merchandising decisions. I’m not. You know who is? Penny Arcade. I’m not preventing anything — the site you’re supposedly defending so vehemently is.
Except KirbyBits didn’t go to the Penny Arcade forum or anything to harass the owners like you are.
Okay, I read the link about ‘rape culture’ on here which is supposed to explain, I presume, why you would be offended by something like this. It seems like utter bullshit to me.
Let’s see.. Men are more aggressive and physically stronger than women due to testosterone, and they have a sexual organ which penetrates the women, whereas women are more passive and less violent than men and have a sexual organ which receives the male opposite.
Gee, sure sounds like ‘rape culture’ to me! I mean, you can call it that, but the things in the article you link to are basically just facts stated as ‘this is rape culture.’
News flash! That is just the way humans are! It has been like this! So if you have such a problem with people having two different sexes, and people in general being asshats, and sex having connotations of aggression and all that, then you may as well refrain from the whole process. If it is so terrible and wrong and sexist.
Instead of, you know, being a stripper and making money off of it.
Just sayin’
Well said.
I’d like to get that in here before you get attacked for being a rapist or something.
Sadly, as I found out, people like her are incapable of seeing anything other than their own opinion.
@tristan Thank you for proving you didn’t read the link, because that’s not what it says. In the definition at the very top of the post it says that Rape Culture is not biological and instead says Rape Culture “is a complex of beliefs that encourages male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent…In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable as death or taxes.”
Rape Culture is not the biological fact of how humans reproduce, it is our culture’s attitude towards it.
@Nope I would like to know what you’re opinion is, spelled out, on its own without relation to what anyone else here has said. A sort of definition of your opinion as it were. Because what kirbybits, myself and others are saying is that violence against women is wrong, the promotion of said violence in a culture is wrong and using sex and sexuality as a weapon is wrong. I fail to see what in your opinion, what little of it you have explained, contradicts this.
Well, there are some interesting scientific studies that suggest pretty strongly that the idea that testosterone leads to aggressive/violent tendency is just bullshit designed to make the violence that actually happens from some of us male seem natural and the norm: http://www.anapsid.org/hormones.html
Look, I’m not a violent person but let’s be realistic, there is a lot more violence from males than from females.
I’m not trying to justify that violence. But it’s there. Is it modern culture, or is it just the way people are? Does testosterone cause males to be violent? I don’t know. Does culture cause them to be violent? I doubt it. Because if you look at history, we are less violent now then we’ve ever been, and we also have a much more active culture than ever before, yet surely there are less rapes in the developed world than there were a few centuries ago? Where was the ‘rape culture’ then, that was causing people to rape more than they do now?
Come on now, let’s be realistic. Saying that a comic like this contributes to rape culture which contributes to the REAL PROBLEM of rape, is similar to people claiming that DOOM led to the incident at columbine. It’s ridiculous.
Tristan, you’ve already stated that you think the concept of rape culture is “utter bullshit.” No one here is your teacher, and it’s not our jobs to educate you or get you to educate yourself. If you’ve truly read the Rape Culture 101 link at the top right, and all the articles linked on that page, and still think rape culture is “utter bullshit” then I don’t think there’s anything here at this blog for you anymore.
You’re making a lot of assumptions with no data to back them up, and you’re ignoring the intersection of a reduced level of violence without consequence with progressives (like me, like others here) who have vocally protested “the way things are” in the past. Social change is possible, has happened, and will continue to be happen. Whether you try and dismiss it or not.
Heh, I think you misunderstood Jimmy’s intentions.
He’s saying that you’re right and that actually even the biological thing is false.
These people even make us turn on ourselves!
To clarify, this was to Tristan, not Kirbybits.
Kirby…you say that we should just leave your blog if we don’t want to hear about the stuff you talk about…and yet you don’t leave things like the PA t-shirts alone.
I’m too tired for all this bullshit.
Can’t we all just be offended without actively attacking people/merchandise?
Oh, please explain how fruit fucker isn’t the same thing, seeing as it still rapes. Sure it doesn’t rape people, but shouldn’t the word rape still suggest that “Rape Culture” or something?
I’m saying that if you’re going to participate on this blog by placing yourself in an intellectual basement and refuse to read the links provided (which address so. many. of the 101-level opinions put forth), you’re not going to get a lot out of it other than being told repeatedly to educate yourself.
Just because you’re new to these ideas doesn’t mean I am. Just because you’ve never had this discussion before doesn’t mean it’s my job (or anyone else’s) to have this discussion, over and over, with every single New To The Concept of Feminism/Rape Culture/Progressivism person on the Internet.
And once again, you’re bringing up a question that’s already been asked and answered elsewhere, both on the Internet at large and on this blog (it’s either in this post or the one just below it, I’ve approved well over 100 comments today so my memory is fuzzy on where that discussion landed).
What if we have read the links and still diagree with your sentiments on the matter? Are we then still classed as unintelligent or unwilling to educate ourselves? I read through the links provided to make sure I at least somewhat understood your side of the argument. It led me to the conclusion that I still feel you made what was a joke based upon a quester’s reaction once a quest is finished out to be far more indepth and detrimental then it actually was, attaching it to an apparently ongoing female struggle for equality amongst men that has already been achieved.
But I suppose that as a girl who disagrees with your sentiments, I am also going to be classed as an “internal mysognyist”.
I want to introduce you to the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledbetter_Fair_Pay_Act
Lilly Ledbetter was, for years, paid less than the lowest-paid man in her pay grade at Goodyear. When she discovered the discrepancy in 1998, she sought redress. The Supreme Court decided in 2007 that she didn’t have a case because she had filed suit more than 180 days since the discrepancy started — never mind that she hadn’t even discovered it until spring 1998 and filed her initial claim with the EEOC in July of that year.
The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, which ‘resets’ that window with each discriminatory paycheck (thus ensuring that victims of pay discrimination can still sue after discovering the discrepancy), wasn’t put into effect until Obama took office in 2009.
This was in the United States of America. In this century. And this is ONE example. The struggle for equality has been won? Ha fucking HA. I won’t call you a misogynist simply for disagreeing with someone, but I will say it’s really damned naive to say the fight’s over.
And, again, making this all about the strip ignores the blatant mockery and disrespect Mike and Jerry and some of their fans chose to engage in afterward, including the marketing and sale of merchandise celebrating a monster that had, by that point, become a symbol of rape. They could have ignored the criticism. They could have accepted that some people will find the joke offensive and move on themselves. Instead they engaged in unnecessary asshattery to defend something that everyone keeps insisting was just a joke to begin with. And that’s where they fucking failed.
Wait wait wait. Are you trying to equate a case of inequality with the entire system still “keeping you down?” It’s pretty obvious that the situation was more of “someone slipping through the cracks,” than “justice looked over her because she’s a woman!”
I would also like to point out that men work more dangerous jobs on average and studies have shown that it’s women who “keep themselves down” by not being as competitive for pay or positions of power. But enjoy your office jobs while the men keep the backbone of society going by doing the jobs you either don’t want to do or are physically unable.
If you think women aren’t equal opportunity or even have a leg up on men in American society you are retarded. And bringing up gender in posts that don’t even mention it are POOR FUCKING CLASS, you whiny bitches.
First off, mentioning that the ‘female struggle for equality has been achieved’ qualifies as a mention of gender.
Secondly: women aren’t afraid of hard work. According to the UN Food and Agriculture Office, women work to provide over half the food in the world — engaging in the backbreaking work of farming while their rights continue to be disrespected in many nations. (Citation: http://web.archive.org/web/20040214085507/http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/oct98/22_39_068.html)
Even in industrialized nations, the average estimated salaries for women tend to be 43% less than the average estimated salaries for men. (Citation: http://www.unicef.org/sowc07/docs/sowc07.pdf – said report also describes how women face discrimination at every stage in their lives.)
There’s an alarming phenomenon known as the ‘feminization of poverty’ — the results of discrimination even in Western nations which lead to lower wages and a poorer lifestyle for women. (Citation: http://www.newint.org/features/1995/08/05/270keynote/)
There’s the fact that people are debating even now, even in Western industrialized nations, whether women should be able to control their bodies — not just through access to abortion, but through access to preventative BIRTH CONTROL. There’s the reprehensible reaction of the military and military contractors to reports of sexual assault — you might have noticed some hearings on this very subject in recent months? And all that is just the tip of the iceberg.
It is true that, in fact, women seem to have an advantage in some newer, expanding markets — computing in particular — but a few victories doesn’t mean the fight’s over. So take your misogynist bullshit and shove it, you massive prick.
The fruit fucker? Seriously? Newsflash: It is impossible to rape fruit. That’s why it’s not the same thing.
How is that any different from a dick-limbed wolf raping video game characters? You can’t do that either.
Why the fuck is understanding there is a difference between a sentient creature, hypothetical or not, and a piece of fruit, hypothetical or not, so hard to grasp.
Look, I also somewhat resist the idea that violence (physical, sexual, psychological, emotional, what-have-you) in the media, fiction, games, etc. *makes* people do horrible things. After all, *I* don’t go committing too many acts of violence because of my exposure to this fictional violence. However, I don’t just dismiss the arguments of people that say this happens or may happen just because I am skeptical.
However, I will say that I have come to see the theories of Michel Foucalt, Judith Butler, to cite two intellectuals that write about the subtle systematic oppression of individuals in a more sympathetic light.
And that just because me and you don’t see a problem with Dickwolves or jokes about rape, doesn’t mean it’s OK to minimize the impact for other people. Whether it’s a distress trigger, or one among other numerous instances of institutionalized sexism (or other forms of marginalization) people that don’t enjoy the blissful ignorance of privilege experience day to day.
i’m really happy about it too. i think that PA does so many wonderful things — many of which you pointed out in your original post — that i am super happy to support. i’ve enjoyed PAX since the beginning mostly *because* it always felt so inclusionary — it didn’t matter who you were as long as you loved games! that’s it! IMO they made a mistake with their dickwolves response (not necessarily the strip itself, since as they themselves point out they offend a lot of people, but damn, those tshirts were a mistake) but no one’s perfect, and i read this as a sign that they’re willing to move past the incident, and i personally am too. it did bring up a lot of important points about the flaws in our culture but now it’s time to celebrate the positives about gamer culture — there’s so much good there! let’s not ignore the bad and the ugly, but let’s find solutions and keep moving forward.
kirby, you’re part of the solution and i think PA is too.
-jane
Good on you for…
A) Voting with your wallet and encouraging others to do so. I get the feeling sales of that shirt likely plummeted, which means in this instance being pro rape culture cost someone money. This needs to happen more often.
B) Engaging in dialogue in your comments section, even with people who are not educated on these issues. +10 For directing people to places where they can be educated. +100000 points for not devolving into ad hominem attacks on the ignorant and sticking to the issues, because wow, that must be tempting against words like this.
Stay classy,
Game Dev Who Found You Through Brenda Brathwaite Up Here In Canada
You better not backpedal and show up at PAX. For your own good.
“Backpedal” how, exactly? I said I thought them selling the shirts was gross — they’re no longer selling them. From a professional standpoint, the blocker preventing me from speaking is gone. Whether I’m interested in going personally is another matter, but how do you see it as backpedaling?
Honestly, I hope you do show up at PAX East. I think the gaming world would benefit from more voices like yours.
I would tend to agree, though I perfectly understand if you’re still worried about triggering. Still: turns out I’m going to have an extra pass. If you’d like it, kirbybits, please let me know privately and I’ll happily arrange to get it to you free of charge.
I wonder how long you’d keep your badge if the Enforcers knew you were making threats.
So when a mythical creature with dicks as limbs rapes a digital character of human appearance then it’s real rape vs. a humanoid robot that fucks fruit? So all we have to do is switch the human character with say a worgen and then it would be a-okay especially if it was a male worgen cause you know female worgen’s are a no-no.
So, so glad to see those things taken down. I’d be a lot happier if it got any sort of recognition from the PA team but it’s still some sort of progress.
Sorry that the trolls, dudebros and their accomplices are showing up but you seem to be handling it well.
As a rape survivor myself, It took me many months to cope with my issues regarding the situation. Dating was the worst task of my early 20′s after that, because it was so hard to trust anyone that even wanted a kiss near the end of a series of dates, much less sex.
As such, when I FOUND this comic (I am a fan of Penny Arcade), I wasn’t nearly as offended as some of you are. It’s not so much a joke about rape so much as it is a mention of rape in a joke about questing in MMO’s.
Yes, the “Dickwolves” shirt was very offensive, but they removed it. Now you’re saying you want them to acknowledge it? You’ve gotten your message to them, they’ve acknowledged it on THEIR end, and now it seems like you’re all just trying to push it down their throats even more to take some sort of moral high-ground, and flaunt your victory.
I’m sorry, but this has become less about the message that jokes about rape are not funny, and more about trying to promote yourself as a strong female who succeeded at protesting a joke about rape.
(In short, it’s less about the joke, and more about yourself.)
I’m sorry, but I can’t support the cause of someone so self-righteous and incapable of hearing the opinion of those whom have a different stance than yourself.
This is probably the best thought-out, most understandable, and probably highest justifiable response in this entire comments section.
I applaud you, madam.
It should go without saying how sorry I am for your experience.
The absence of a shirt is one thing, but there is no explanation why. It’s nice to assume that they realized the errors of their ways, in which case an apology is usually what follows.
For all people know the answer is “Okay okay, jesus, quit whining, we’ll stop selling the shirt.” Or “We have made the bulk of the money we are going to, so lets let those nutty feminazis think they’ve ‘won’ by taking down the shirt unannounced.”
Don’t forget, the original comics and the joke about trigger warnings is still there.
This is excellent news. I will admit that, upon first reading of the comic, I found it hilarious. However, long discussions with my wife about the very same thing people are talking about (or shouting about) – creativity, freedom of speech, responsibility, and sensitivity – have since altered my views for the better.
While I clearly don’t think that Mike and Jerry are actively pro-rape culture, they don’t understand the implications of their choice in jokes. *I* still don’t, but I think I get it enough to know why this is pretty unacceptable.
But anybody who WEARS a Dickwolves t-shirt? Who actively promotes the idea that they are on the side of a (fictitious) group that rapes people? I don’t know them. I don’t know if they’re being “ironic” or if they really believe that rape is okay. It makes me, as a guy who’s never been in that kind of situation, uncomfortable. I can’t imagine what it’d be like for any survivor of sexual assault.
So I say congratulations from a fellow Boston developer. This is excellent news!
Very well said, Eric.
I think you speak for many of us when you say you’re still learning the full implications of this kind of situation but that in many ways your naiveté has become apparent to you and that you believe and respect what you hear “from the horse’s mouth” so to speak.
Thank you. It’s nice to hear that some people, rather than reflexively attacking any and all critics, actually took the time and effort to come around and get it. As a fellow Boston-area industry professional, I can’t tell you how happy I am to read this, particularly after seeing so many horrible comments in the other thread.
http://www.bitchesofdestiny.com/bitches/kirby.html
“Balancing her childhood dream of taking her clothes off in public”
“Superlative: Most Likely To Sleep With Your Friends”
“Deadly Sin: Lust”
Lol
Thanks for visiting my troupe’s website! We’re pretty proud of it.
I’d never heard of a Moscow Mule before but it sounds delicious! And your website is AWESOME.
Actually I have family that’s been murdered so I’d really appreciate it if they took killing out of videogames, books, movies, etc, since it makes me feel really uncomfortable and sad.
Dwayne, I’m sorry to hear that. However, since that’s not the topic at hand, what you’re doing is actually derailing. More here: http://derailingfordummies.com/#moreimportantly
Actually, he was sarcastically remarking upon your point of view, but Im sure you have a response for that too.
Thank you for mansplaining. Because NO ONE here got that until a MAN explained it to us.
Huh? are you talking to me? Oh, thats funny.
Are you serious? Wow. “Mansplaining”?? Like he can’t have an opinion because he’s a man? And any woman (like myself) who doesn’t agree with you is automatically “internally misogynist”?
*eyeroll*
Condescendingly explaining something to a woman when it was rather patently obvious qualifies as mansplaining to me. Simple disagreement doesn’t except where it, too, is condescending. So you missed my point.
I’m not the one who said you were exhibiting internalized misogyny, either, though I can’t honestly say I disagree.
Revias was making a point. Rather than address it, you just assume Revias is a man and dismiss it as “mansplaining”.
Sounds like plain ol’ sexism to me.
Men can be evil, but do not equal evil. Likewise, Dicks don’t equal rape.
If they were called Rapewolves, I’d be behind you guys, but in the meantime I’m tired of this “discussion”. I’m going to just agree to disagree with you, give Penny Arcade the benefit of the doubt, and back away from the blog. I know I won’t be missed as the annoying voice of chick who won’t fall in line, but thank you for the interaction nonetheless. I hope all offended parties find common ground soon.
“Actually, he was sarcastically remarking upon your point of view, but Im sure you have a response for that too.”
Please point out the part that’s an actual point rather than a condescending ‘explanation’ that was neither needed nor asked for.
Gladly!
Actual Point:
“Actually, he was sarcastically remarking upon your point of view…”
Not A point:
“…but Im sure you have a response for that too.”
Condescending Explanation:
“Thank you for mansplaining. Because NO ONE here got that until a MAN explained it to us.”
No problem
So a man being condescending to a woman is “mansplaining”? What about a woman being condescending to another woman? A man to a man?
I of course do not know you well enough to make this statement boldly, but I will assume you are a feminist. If you are, it is very hypocritical to have a view that women should be treated equally, and then type something that suggests that men being condescending to women is automatically sexist. By treating men and women in this way, you are actually perpetuating the idea that men and women should be thought of, if not treated, differently.
From the content of your posts, it is terribly transparent that you are somewhat sexist yourself, and your attempt to play the part of the victim, talked down to by sexist males, does not conceal your misandry.
A man being condescending to a woman making a feminist argument is most certainly mansplaining.
Don’t hate men. Hate obtuse, misogynist assholes.
Thanks for playing.
Someone having an view on a topic that differs from your’s doesn’t make someone a misogynist asshole.
Then why did you say “mansplaining”? He didn’t bring gender into this. You did. All he did was explain the sarcasm to someone who didn’t get the joke:
“Actually, he was sarcastically remarking upon your point of view, but Im sure you have a response for that too.”
At which point you came and said:
“Because NO ONE here got that until a MAN explained it to us.”
The former statement is not sexist in any way, although it it perhaps rude in context. The latter is sexist and betrays a small prejudice against men. If you can take a sentence that doesn’t refer to sex or stereotypes, even in context, and suggest that it’s sexist, then how sexist do you think the portmanteau “mansplaining” is? I personally find that word derogatory and offensive.
You’re an idiot.
I got directed to your blog because i wanted one of those shirts. I have to admit, I had to stop reading your soap-box drama.
As a girl who also works in games, I get the feeling alot of what i create professionally would offend you if you thought i was male. I think you need to get off your high horse.
Internalized misogyny is still misogyny.
I was sitting here trying to figure out what to say, and then you said it better. Giant Internet High-Five for you.
“As a girl who also works in games, I get the feeling alot of what i create professionally would offend you if you thought i was male. I think you need to get off your high horse.”
Thank you. My sister and I are lifelong gamers and she thinks this comic is hilarious. Some people need to realize that freedom of speech means you’re not entitled to censor someone else’s speech, even if it offends you.
There need to be more women speaking up about this issue, showing that not every woman is an overly sensitive, one-issue feminist.
Jesus fucking christ look up what censorship means or at least read the other comments about censorship you ignorant twit
Congratulations on being a woman. Un-congratulations on thinking that, because you are a woman, your opinion overrides that of other womens’.
Excuse me. The biggest thing I notice here is an infringement upon someone’s freedom of speech. They aren’t going around making shirts that say rape is good, and that’s enough for me. Why isn’t it for you? If they were openly advocating rape, then by all means take it down. But that. Isn’t. What. They. Were. Doing.
“If they were openly advocating rape, then by all means take it down.”
Dickwolves are rapists. Team Dickwolves = Team Rapists.
Do you actually know anything about free speech? Because from what you’re spouting here, it seems pretty clear that you don’t.
As far as I knew, KirbyBits is not the U.S. Government, nor representing it in any form. She does not guarantee or have any impact on someone’s freedom of speech. The notion that the First Amendment (which is what you are invoking with that phrase) has anything to do here is wholly misguided on basic principle.
Besides which, if the creators of Penny Arcade are allowed to openly speak about topics, they are allowed to be criticized for such. Which was done. If they decided to take down the shirt, that was their own decision–if influenced by these posts, it’s still not akin to being ‘forced.’
Freedom of Speech (or Freedom of Expression) as guaranteed in the First Amendment of the US Constitution does not provide a guarantee of Freedom from Criticism.
Censorship is the suppression of ideas or materials from a government, the media, or another controlling body (to paraphrase Wikipedia). I am not a government, I am not the media, and while I guess it’d be interesting if this blog somehow exercised control over anything but its own comments, this blog is not a controlling body.
I pointed out some bullshit. Someone at Penny Arcade decided to listen. I’m trying to tilt my head pretty far, but I still don’t see how that’s censorship.
What you’re -actually- looking at is the interaction of people with different viewpoints in a society that values free speech. PA said what they want. Kirby and folks said what they want. You and others have said what you want. PA took an action based on what they eventually decided was the best course.
Maybe PA figured this was the best course because they eventually decided the shirt was in bad taste, or just because they wanted the furor to die down. Either way, that’s their prerogative. Just because people can say whatever they want doesn’t mean that their words and actions are free of consequences.
Huge swaths of the angry-man internet see to think that free speech means that they in particular can say whatever the hell they want, no strings attached. But when people that disagree say what THEY want – well, that seems to be a problem.
You know…almost anything and everything could be interpreted as offensive by one group or another. By having this one item taken down you open the way to anything with a dog or pig on it also being taken off shelves everywhere (obviously for religious purposes). Next time I suggest averting your eyes if something offends you.
What you are using here is a Slippery Slope argument, which is a logical fallacy. If the concept of the Slippery Slope is new to you, many, many pages on the Internet exist that you can read and learn from.
Additionally, the suggestion of just avoiding offensive material appears in the Derailing for Dummies link that appears on the top right of every page on this blog, under Required Reading. Feel free to click on that link and read more about the ridiculousness of that statement.
The problem I have with your argument is that it relies on simply ignoring everyone on the basis of “LA LA LA DERAILING I CAN’T HEAR YOU”
Also, why the hell would anyone actually buy a shirt that read “Team Rapist”?
Newsflash. THEY AREN’T. People are buying a shirt that references a REALLY DAMN FUNNY COMIC. No one wearing it WANTS TO RAPE. No one wearing it SUPPORTS RAPE.
They simply support slightly crude humor.
You can bitch all you’d like about this, but actually getting it removed? That’s absolutely terrible. You probably don’t even play video games.
Oh, and on a side note, I’d like to point out that censorship doesn’t need to involve the government.
Well, it is true that I’m not spending a lot of energy actually letting people derail…so yes, to the extent that people’s comments are, “OH BUT LET ME TRY AND DERAIL YOU AND NOT ACTUALLY ADRESS THIS,” …yeah, I’m going to point out that that’s derailing.
“You probably don’t even play video games.”
Seriously, dudebro, try harder.
hmmmm…
Way to ignore everything I just said.
I believe the word for that would be…derailng.
This makes me so made simply because you act as though you simply cannot be wrong. Ever.
The problem here is that anyone who says something against what you say is labeled some sort of rapistnazi who hates women.
What if we’d just like to laugh?
*Mad
I’d like to fix that because I can see you ignoring my whole post to point that out.
I didn’t address everything in your comment, mostly because your points have been addressed in this post, the comments on this post, the post I made back in October that I linked in this post, and that post’s comments.
If other people want to attempt to educate you, it’s up to them. *Or*, you could go out and read more. The fact that this seems SO SUPER BASIC to you, and yet many other people (including, it appears, Penny Arcade) are treating it like a more complex, problematic topic *could* be a sign to you that your assumptions need to be re-examined. Or you could yell more and say stuff that’s not true, like:
“The problem here is that anyone who says something against what you say is labeled some sort of rapistnazi who hates women.”
No one has called you that, that I’m aware of. Your behavior is certainly indicating that you don’t hold a lot of respect or sympathy for rape survivors, or at the very least *this* rape survivor.
Derailing involves changing the topic (see the link in the top right of this blog for a lot more information). I responded to the parts of your comment I found worth responding to. Those are different things.
Sigh….
I can see why you always seem to “win” every argument.
You repeat the same thing until the other person gets tired of you.
Well, this will most likely be the last thing I say, so I’m expecting you to attack me in your response and claim that I clearly have no respect for rape blahblahblah.
Look. I’m not going to say rape is good, I don’t think anyone in their right mind would. However, I would like to be able to laugh at a joke (even if it is in slightly poor taste) without having to worry about being called part of the oppressive-male-group-of-women-hating-rapists-that-totally-exists.
I’m sure you’ve read it, and I’m also sure that you’ve responded to it. But I’d like to post this again:
What surprised me most about some of the reactions to our Dickwolf joke was not that people were offended. But that this was the comic that offended them. In each case the emails I got started with something like “I’ve been a long time fan” or “Been reading the comic for years…” and then they go into how this particular comic really bothered them.
I just don’t understand that. Did the comics about bestiality, suicide, murder, pedophilia, and torture not bother them? Or how about the fruit fucker? I mean, we have a character who is a literal rapist. What comic strip have they been reading all these years?
For the most part I think that people are perfectly happy to laugh at offensive jokes until the joke offends them. Then it’s not funny anymore. There is no way we can know what each and every person who reads the comic has decided to find offensive.
In the end I just disagree with these people about what’s funny and that’s perfectly okay.
-Gabe out
Enjoy your life and try to focus on actually protesting ACTUAL THREATS.
I didn’t want to comment, but the fact that you are dismissive of something that is not just offensive, but actively dangerous means I can’t stay silent. We all know rape is a bad idea, but our culture promotes the idea that rape is bad except in this case, except in that case. We attack the victims and let the criminals go free in court because of this mentality.
We have some strange ideas in this country (US for international readers) that rape is bad only if a woman is grabbed and dragged into an ally and perfectly allowable in any other case. I do not exaggerate. As for dangerous, our rhetoric is co-opted by the media of other cultures and leads to actual rape that is condoned by society and governments for one reason or another. (Killing as well.) And then promoters of this mentality in this country are shocked when someone would actually do it. “It was only a joke. I like to laugh at base things.” It may not be incitement directly, but it leads to a mentality where people subconsciously think it okay.
As for Gabe’s response, yes all humor should be allowed with the only prerequisite be that it is funny. Rape is never funny, and since you bring it up, neither is pedophilia or torture. The topics by themselves make me phycially ill, but to make light of them, to causally dismiss them as laughter does, it’s unacceptable.
This stopped being about the comic long ago. Forget apologizing, if they had said nothing this would have disappeared and died away a handful of days afterwords. It’s their dismissal of other people’s legitimate concerns and their dismissal/making fun of trigger warnings (something ostensibly for the purpose of avoiding harm). So, yes guess what, that is an “ACTUAL THREAT.”
Now you’ll say I’m dismissing you argument. Yes, I dismiss you argument in the same way I dismiss the argument that the sky is actually in fact green. You may have respect for rape, but you are woefully misinformed and your presumptions act as blinders rather than focus. The purpose of such criticism is not to clash or conflict, but to educate. That is all it has ever been. The commenters who criticized PA were never the aggressors.
Dickwolf represents absurdity.
For most people it represents rape.
I think the problem here is rhetoric. For Gabe, the dickwolf could represent a multitude of absurdity that readers are not privy to. For the rest of us, the only context we are given for a “dickwolf” is the only purpose they serve is to rape. So when product is released with “Team Dickwolf” logo on it, the only association we have with the made-up creature is rape.
If the dickwolf was shown in different absurd context, we would see that perhaps there is more to dickwolves than just rape. Our immediate reaction to the shirts then wouldn’t just be “Team Rape,” but all the other aspects that a dickwolf may have.
The fruit fucker is not just a rapist, but a juicer as well. His means of getting juice isn’t to put fruit into its head, but by other means. We have another association with fruit fucker, and thus the rape joke is lessened or dismissed.
Hence why Penny Arcade is getting so much shit on this. Not only did they make only one association (rape), but they are also pissing off all rape victims by creating a single, visual representation of a terrible act they were forced to experience.
A person has every right to make jokes about serious topics, and no doubt there will be people offended and upset by said jokes. The problem here for PA and everyone who is saying “WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU. ITS JUST A TSHIRT. ITS NOT PROMOTING RAPE” is that it DOES promote rape because there is absolutely no other way to interpret it. There are no other associations for dickwolf, therefore dickwolf = pro rape.
Here lies the problem. If the Penny Arcade had thought it through a little bit more, and give dickwolf more activities other than being an instrument for torture, this discussion probably wouldn’t be going on right now.
“there is no other way to interpret it”
….what?
No…seriously. The people who see it as rape aren’t the people are generally enjoy Penny Arcade Comics.
The whole thing is quite clearly absurd. Gabe was using the comic to make a point about VIDEO GAMES and certain quests that are silly.
I think that anyone who reads PA because of videogames would likely have gotten that, and found it funny.
Furthermore, if you’d have read the comic and the one right after:http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/11/ and http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/13/
You’d have found that a Dickwolf is “a mythological creature whose every limb is an erect phallus.”
While crude, clearly, it is meant as a satirical fabrication.
This whole thing is going on because some people who didn’t get the joke thought PA was poking fun at rape or something.
God, I can’t believe I’m actually responding to you people.
PA is made for people who play video games and get video game related humor. If you don’t get the joke, there’s no need to assume some sort of hidden motives.
” The people who see it as rape aren’t the people are generally enjoy Penny Arcade Comics.”
The first of many inaccurate assumptions in your comment.
Kirby, making your comment below impossible to reply to is just childish.
That aside, you might be right, but that certainly doesn’t mean THE ONLY way to interpret it is rape. I still have no idea how you could see it that way, but hey, I’m just a man, right?
So…how did you see this comic then?
Ah, I’ll have to apologize for blaming the unreplyability thing on you.
Probably the only thing I’ll be apologizing for….
And exactly what are the other qualities of a dickwolf?
The Dickwolf rape gag isnt the punchline, the focus of the joke or even detailed. The fact that you looked at this as offensive is just a tell-tale sign that you’re either looking for something to complain about (most likely for attention) or you’re (far less likely) too sensitive for the net.
I’m sure you think that you’re being opressed but rest assured, I’d be replying to this bullshit if you were a man, woman, dog, cat or otherworldly gaseous being.
– Dick
fucking censorship ruins everything
Censorship is the suppression of ideas or materials from a government, the media, or another controlling body (to paraphrase Wikipedia). I am not a government, I am not the media, and while I guess it’d be interesting if this blog somehow exercised control over anything but its own comments, this blog is not a controlling body.
I pointed out some bullshit. Someone at Penny Arcade decided to listen. I’m trying to tilt my head pretty far, but I still don’t see how that’s censorship.
Despite the fact that I hate you, you are right.
All they did was show they they are some weak-willed people at Penny Arcade who can’t take some complaints. I mean, it’s not like the shirt they were selling was illegal, and there are MUCH more offensive things on the internet.
Why didn’t you just fucking ignore it? Why do you have to ruin the fun for everybody else? You’re acting entirely like sime sort of facist dictator right now. “IF I DONT LIKE IT NOBODY CAN MY WILL IS LAW”. If I werenthe artists here, I would have Laughed in your face. It’s a god damn joke. Get over it.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20020211l.gif
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/336/200404024ae334kz2.jpg
The Fruit Fucker. He rapes fruit.
When this exists, how can you be pissed about Dick Wolves?
One rapist (that rapes a piece of fruit, not a human being) doesn’t negate that another rapist (that rapes human beings) is wrong. Nice try derailing.
The idea that the Fruit Fucker is a rapist is only true if one of these things is also true:
1) Women are non-sentient objects on par with fruit
2) Fruit is sentient
If you hold either of those beliefs to be true, then I think you have problems much greater than this blog can solve.
So where exactly does it say in the comic that ALL dickwolves are rapists? The character says he is raped by the dickwolves, are we assuming that he means every dickwolf in existence?
Where does it say they aren’t?
Where does it say they aren’t?
Do you always assume a whole group is bad just cause you know some of them are?
How about this, when a dickwolf was created, do you think the creative team thought about what other qualities a dickwolf may have? What other purpose would an all-limbs-are-penises mythological creature have?
So if you have a penis you have to be a rapist?
Why are you avoiding the question? I’m asking about dickwolves qualities and what other possible purpose they have.
I did not make the logical leap that rapists are all males and require a penis. I am well aware that women can sexually assault just as much as men. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Well they obviously have the ability to function as a mascot for sports teams. But it doesn’t matter what qualities they may or may not have. People are assuming ALL dick wolves are rapist just because they have multiple phallus and/or the fact you know some of them are.
You said what you said I didn’t put words in your mouth.
People choose mascots based on what they know about them. Wolverines, for example, are chosen for their tenacity, association with the X-men, and sharp claws. The only knowledge PA fans have of Dickwolves is in the capacity that they commit serial rape. So symbolically, Penny Arcade fans feel that an animal whose sole known behavior is rape should represent them.
Yes because thats the only shirt you could buy from Penny Arcade.
The goalposts keep moving. What a strange and unexpected phenomenon!
Choice doesn’t justify censorship.
I myself would never wear such a shirt but that doesn’t mean others should be denied the right.
The censorship argument has already been dealt with above. The people who were boycotting and writing PA have no legal or financial authority over PA beyond the power to retract their business. Are they to be denied that? How, then, are we supposed to send a message to any business engaging in practices we don’t care for?
If someone wants a dickwolf shirt so badly, no one’s stopping them from making their own. Censorship is the suppression of expression by a government body. Criticism is not censorship, and companies that choose to pull their product in response to criticism are not the victims of censorship.
Please quote the exact passage where Zabe explicity stated “ALL dick wolves are rapist just because they have multiple phallus and/or the fact you know some of them are.”
What does that have to do with anything?
With that logic, all living things that can’t speak or say no are also a-okay.
So a guy rapes a dog, that’s cool? Dogs have just as many feelings as humans and just as much of a right to be heard by the law. Still, I don’t see you defending dogs when Tycho talks about having sex with animals.
Look, I’m going to tell you something. I was raped. I take rape very seriously, and I have triggers too. But for you to be proud of you getting your friends to remove a t-shirt (that probably wasn’t selling well anyway) is kind of silly. I feel like you’d be better off going after real threats instead of two dudes with a convention. Do you know what I mean?
Yes, fruit are exactly the same as pets, that’s right. Good work!
Once again you claim that only women can be rape victims. Tsk tsk. Also, the word you’re looking for is sapient, but that would be derailing.
You don’t think MMO NPCs are sapient, do you?
“Once again you claim that only women can be rape victims.”
Good point, thank you for calling that/me out. The corrected part of that statement (using your much-appreciated vocab correction):
“1) Rape survivors are non-sapient objects on par with fruit
2) Fruit is sapient”
As to the “Once again” part of your statement — if I’ve made other screw-ups like this, and if you feel like pointing them out, please do so. You’re obviously not required to do that (nor is anyone else), and I’ll sit down at some point soon (when I’m not in the middle of the Global Game Jam and sleep-deprived as hell) to go through all my responses and double-check…but obviously, I’m capable of thinking, typing, and then confirming a comment and still fuck it up, even when I’m awake and alert and trying to be very clear in my communication.
I’m sorry for writing something that put forth the notion that only women are rape survivors, both because it’s not something I believe, and also because I try to be an ally to men who are sexual assault survivors, so the last thing I want to do is exclude them. Again, I appreciate the free copy editing.
To answer your question about NPCs: No, I don’t think NPCs (or any other part of video games) are literally sapient. (That would make my job a lot weirder.) I do think NPCs and PCs represent sapient creatures, which players can sympathize with or “humanize” in some way (assuming the character isn’t a straight-up human already) to be viewed as “people.” Similarly, I don’t think the characters in TV and movies are “real” — I understand they are actors — but those fictional characters are still concepts that I can often connect to and bond with on a personal level that is meaningful to me. I think these fictional characters (in all media, but specifically to characters video games, to keep the topic somewhat focused) can be meaningful to and have an impact on players. Likewise, to bring it all the way back around to the actual topic of this blog post, I think that Penny Arcade using a rape survivor as part of their joke – which I understand was not intended to be about rape, but rather MMO quest – is something that contributes to rape culture. I understand that the character was imaginary, I understand that dickwolves are imaginary. The problem is that rape isn’t imaginary, and using the rape of a character as a joke still carries meaning, even if the character isn’t a real live person.
“i’m sorry for writing something that put forth the notion that only women are rape survivors, both because it’s not something I believe, and also because I try to be an ally to men who are sexual assault survivors, so the last thing I want to do is exclude them.”
Is there a reason you used the term rape survivors for women and sexual assault survivors for men?
No, at least not at all intentionally. https://kirbybits.wordpress.com/wp-admin/edit-comments.php?comment_status=approved&paged=1#comments-form
“1) Women are non-sentient objects on par with fruit”
Why did you attach ‘women’ to that? Women were never mentioned in Redervoir’s post, only rape.
The Fruit Fucker is an obvious and blatant symbol for rape. It takes advantage of something that is powerless to stop it, robbing it of “juice” (confidence,dignity, so on.. ) and degrading the “fruit”.
Quite honestly, given your heavily feminist attitude and claims to have been raped, I find it hard to believe that you wouldn’t spot it. You’re grasping at straws, blatantly ignoring the clear symbolism and trying to interperate it literaly so you can win an argument. It’s insulting that you would try to cover your own hide and consider the fruit fucker acceptable.
“I find it hard to believe that you wouldn’t spot it.”
Me too, and yet, it happened. I’m not perfect, and I fucked up and said something which wasn’t what I was trying to say in the first place, and which put forth an exclusionary idea about rape survivors that I don’t believe and don’t want to perpetuate. You’re actually the second person to point this out, and I responded with an apology and revised statement. It’s…somewhere in the comments. I ask for some lenience in having lost track a bit about what parts of which discussion took place on which blog post.
“You’re grasping at straws, blatantly ignoring the clear symbolism and trying to interperate it literaly so you can win an argument. It’s insulting that you would try to cover your own hide and consider the fruit fucker acceptable.”
I’m not trying to ignore symbolism, I’m saying that I don’t consider penetrating fruit to be rape. Rape is sex without consent. Fruit is incapable of giving consent…it’s not rape. If others want to call it out as a symbol for rape and protest that, that’s their protest to stage. Whether or not another character in Penny Arcade’s history is a rapist does not actually prevent me, or anyone else, from identifying the Dickwolves as rapists.
Except the dickwolf comic had nothing to do with females, it was a male being raped by wolves.
You wouldn’t be able to tell this because the comments are getting borked but Kirby did acknowledge that and apologize for it.
She does so here: http://kirbybits.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/update-why-im-not-speaking-at-pax-east-2011/comment-page-2/#comment-477
So I have as much agency and am as much a person as a piece of fruit? Glad to hear you hold rape victims/survivors in such high regard.
Uh… because fruit are non-sapient and cannot be raped?
So are juicers, but this one is alive. Your point?
Before I respond please clarify for me; you are trying to tell me that because they have an anthropomorphic juicer then fruit is also subject to the same condition. Is this what you’re saying?
Fruit Fucker rapes inanimate objects.
Dick Wolves rape PEOPLE.
Do you honestly not see a difference between the two?
No your wrong, Dickwolves don’t rape people because Dickwolves aren’t real.
Didn’t anyone tell you? They are made up, they actually don’t go around raping people.
If a line drawing can offend you, then I feel sorry for you.