Trigger Warning for discussions of rape and rape culture. This warning also applies to all links within the article.
Look, nobody is perfect. It’s entirely probable that at some point in your life you’ll be doing your usual thing, let’s say putting out your web comic, when you unintentionally show off your ignorance by, oh, I don’t know, creating a comic strip that perpetuates rape culture. Some people point this out to you, publicly.
I’m making a whole new paragraph to repeat myself: Nobody is perfect. The idea is not that people never fuck up and accidentally stumble into topics of society, culture and privilege that they weren’t previously aware of. That shit happens, I have done it myself. My point is, when this happens to you (and again, it probably will at some point, because you are not perfect), you have two choices in how to react:
Option One: You say, pretty much verbatim and regardless of the situation’s specifics, “I am sorry. Upsetting you was not my intention. I clearly need to educate myself more about this issue. Thank you for telling me about this and raising my awareness. And again, I’m sorry.” Then, you go and do some research at the library or in some corners of the Internet you apparently haven’t spent time in before, and you educate your damn self. If you’re polite and catch them on a good day, you might even ask the person who originally informed you of your fuck-up for more resources to use in your self-education. Generally, though, you pry open your brain and dump in some new information about the world and the people in it who aren’t exactly like you, and you come out the other side a better person.
Option Two: You act like an asshole. You try and derail the dialog your fans are attempting to have with you via the classic “misunderstanding” that rape culture means forcing men to become rapists. You try to dismiss the fact that rape culture is part of a larger culture of oppression by claiming that people are “choosing” to be offended by your work. You try to make fun of rape survivors and people with PTSD via mocking trigger warnings. You even make a t-shirt using the original rape reference, thus literally profiting off of rape culture.
There’s a lot going on here.
First, I say “try” a lot in Option Two because so much of what Gabe and Tycho of Penny Arcade have been doing feels desperate. Their responses, which consistently try to dismiss the conversation and deny that they have done anything that warrants examination, seem to me as acts of desperation motivated by the mistaken belief that if they can shout down anyone pointing out their original misstep and their rather oppressive responses, no one will notice how oppressive their behavior is. It’s little boys plugging their ears and screaming, “Mary Had a Little Lamb,” to avoid having to listen to to the fact that they did something wrong.
Then, there is the t-shirt. I have to wonder at the creative meeting that spawned the final design – in my mind, it was a 10-second event that consisted of, “maybe we should have the word ‘Dickwolves’ on it somehow-” and then the fire alarm went off and they had to evacuate the building, never to continue the discussion. Given the hostile attitude Gabe and Tycho have continued to display toward the issue, I can’t help but feel like they just want anyone who spoke out to walk into PAX East and be confronted with a wall of “Dickwolves” text at the official merch table.
Which brings me to another point – where, except at PAX/PAX East, could you even wear this shirt? Do you really want to see the kind of looks people will shoot you when their kids are asking, “What’s a dickwolf?” in the middle of the supermarket? I have a shirt with saucy language on it, too, but it’s not splayed in huge sports team style letters across my chest.
(About that sports team style…In the original comic strip, the line that drew fire from, y’know, people who try to raise awareness about and fight against rape culture, is the line where a character states he’s, “raped to sleep,” by creatures called Dickwolves. I’ve been trying to keep a pretty level head on this, but I invite you to check my logic – Dickwolves are explicitly understood to be rapists in the context of the comic itself. The shirt design is a sports team style design using the word “Dickwolves” where the name of the team would usually go and with a little wolf-head logo, as if it was a team mascot (see also: every other sports shirt ever). Is there any way to read this shirt other than, “Go Team Rapists”? I am not trying to stretch for things to critique; I just cannot figure out what this design is saying, if not that.)
So maybe you’re saying, “hey, Penny Arcade just sells the shirt, it’s not their job to monitor where their fans think it’s appropriate to wear it.” Good point, hypothetical responder! However, selling a shirt that puts forth the idea of rape as a joke is – say it with me now – perpetuating rape culture. Wearing this shirt reinforces the idea that rape is a topic that you sprinkle over your other content to spice it up a little, or that it’s “edgy” somehow to laugh about rape. And all of this over a comic strip whose actual three-panel-setup joke had nothing to do with rape. (Which, to repeat: just droppin’ rape in there to make your comic “darkly funny” or “mature” or whatever…perpetuates rape culture.)
To review: some dudes made a comic that perpetuated rape culture. This was brought to their attention. They flailed a lot and acted mystified as to why this, of all their content, is the first time people are speaking out. (Here’s one idea: maybe the landscape of the internet has changed enough over the past 11 years that the same audience that has been calling them out on their shit all along has grown larger, to the point where it’d be more accurate to say that this, of all their content, is the first time they’ve been forced to listen.) And now, long after the time to give these dudes a pass on their behavior has expired, they’ve continued to try as hard as they can to be even bigger dicks than they accidentally were in the first place. All this, and turning a profit on merchandise sales!
The thing that upsets me most about all of this is that the final wearable product isn’t very good or funny. It feels like lazy design with an even lazier agenda. It seems to me that the nifty bit of world-building the original, problematic comic strip achieved is lost. What deserves to be referenced here isn’t the fact that dickwolves exist, it’s that these poor slaves (who if you’ll recall, you, the main character of the strip, won’t rescue) have to live in an utterly awful world. And since no one else will rescue them from said world, I imagine they’d have to self-organize and come up with some way to get support and keep living their lives, even in the face of dickwolves.
So, to honor those imaginary victims of imaginary rape by a mythological creature whose every limb is an erect phallus, I came up with this idea, gloriously realized by an Anonymous Graphic Design Genius:
The Dickwolves Survivors Guild.
Logo for the Dickwolves Survivors Guild: a phoenix rising over the body of a dead dickwolf.
The shirt price is $1 over the actual cost. All of those dollars are being donated to RAINN. Thanks to the class acts at Penny Arcade for inspiring me and my Anonymous Graphic Design Genius friend to make this and use the profit to help make the world a better place.
ETA 01/25/2011: During the #MooreandMe Twitter protest, I was made aware of RAINN’s decision to partner with organizations that deny services to rape survivors who are transgender women. Since that’s, uh, not remotely okay, all money raised by the sale of the DSG t-shirts going forward will be donated to the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center. If I receive reports about denial of services from the BARCC, or if a national organization that doesn’t refuse services based on a survivor’s gender identity can be suggested, I will continue to update which organization receives funds raised from this project.
ETA 02/02/2011: I made this shirt as a response to the Dickwolves t-shirt, which means that this is a protest to something that is no longer for sale. Given that, I don’t see a lot of value in continuing to sell these, aside from raising a little money for BARCC. So if you’re looking to make a statement, I’d encourage you to consider making a donation to BARCC or another charity for rape survivors.
I’m sorry, but if you want to get all high and mighty and make a big stink over this comic you have A LOT of other groups to attack first. Let’s see…every major modern comedian, every sitcom, a lot of popular music and every teenager ever. Why are you attacking PA like this? Why not a multi-million dollar actor who makes a fortune making rape jokes that does nothing for society? Why the duo that may be very well off financially due to their extreme talent, but also raises millions of dollars for children! These men are nothing short of ideal citizens and the world would be a better place if everyone were as caring as them. It upsets me greatly that you felt the need to make a big deal out of this when really, what they did has been deemed acceptable by our society. I understand rape is a horrible, disgusting thing that I hope no one ever has to experience, but so is the loss of a loved one. Why has THAT become acceptable comic material? I’m sorry but if the family of a young boy who was killed by a drunk driver can look the guilty party in the face and say “I forgive you”and mean it, from the bottom of their hearts, I think you’re all gonna make it through the Dickwolves fiasco just fine. Rape is done to make you feel pathetic, weak and worthless. Survivors are strong people. People who have gone through hell, torture, unspeakable hardships and came out tougher than steel. Making a big deal out of a webcomic and a t-shirt, created by two ideal citizens,Is NOT something that a survivor of such a horrific event should worry about. The idea I, and others, have gotten from reading your article is that rape victims are weak, thin-skinned, pathetic people who will never be more than a victim. How dare you. How dare you disrespect some of the most resilient, tough people I know. I’m sorry, but I know rape victims,and the last thing they want is pity from anyone.
Satire does not normalize behavior; it identifies the behavior as wrong. “A Modest Proposal” didn’t normalize cannibalism. Did it offend and upset victims of cannibalism (not j/k here…)? Maybe it did, but the greater good is served by freedom of speech, and the work of the artist.
Let me provide an example using race: If a comic said “A bomb went off in Kandahar today, killing two British servicemen, three UN relief workers and a whole bunch of Pakis.” that would be just plain offensive and racist, and would normalize the use of the racial slur, contributing to the devaluing of Pakistanis.
In the same way, if PA had a comic that just showed a man being raped by dickwolves, with the title “raped to sleep by dickwolves.”, then that would just be offensive humor.
IN CONTEXT, the ‘Paki’ quote is actually satire, and CONDEMNS the use of the racial slur:
During the programme, and referring to the war in Afghanistan, Boyle said: “Basically, we are murdering a load of shepherds. What gets me is our callousness as a society when we read out our dead on the news first, because our lives are more important. Other people’s aren’t worth as much.”
He then adopted a newsreader’s tone, saying: “A bomb went off in Kandahar today, killing two British servicemen, three UN relief workers and a whole bunch of Pakis.”
The “The Sixth Slave” comic is a clear example of satire, and does not contribute to the normalization of either the rape, or the indifference of the ‘hero’.
The ‘normalization’ of bad behavior is, well, bad. No argument there, and there are LOTS of bad behaviors that are normalized in our society, not just sexism and rape. The common pitfall in fighting them, though, is in taking aim at people who aren’t your enemies. Their reputations suffer, and you don’t actually improve your cause.
Remember that guy who got fired for using the word ‘niggardly’?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm
He got his job back, eventually. PA made mistakes, but they weren’t wrong to make that comic; they’re satirists, it’s what they do, and it’s beautiful. Please work with them to restore their reputation. They’re not entirely at fault for what they’ve lost.
I’m genuinely amazed by this brouhaha. I come from a country in Africa where rape is an everpresent reality, a daily scourge that ruins the lives of countless innocent women and children (more than 500k rapes per year, while 25% of surveyed men have admitted to having non-consensual sex with a woman).
I’ve seen this comic, which was innocuous and marginally amusing, though I concur that the t-shirt was tasteless, if nothing that I would normally bestir myself to action over.
What really amazes me though, is that such a large number of people could invest so much time and energy in self-importantly debating such a non-issue as this ridiculous strip. Can we not all invest our money and volunteer hours in real activism rather than this? There are real problems out there that actually deserve our attention.
My mother is a feminist sexual rights professor at Sarah Lawrence. Her most popular class “The Toothless Predator: Breast Feeding as Sexual Assault” has done wonders for encouraging some very sensitive victims to confront their assailants. Unfortunately I in turn now suffer from some very deep issues with dairy products and find that depictions or allusions to cheese, milk and butter trigger onrushes of guilt and anxiety. The sight of the undentured cause me to run in panic.
Please help me in my campaign to have all restaurants, advertisers and supermarkets post trigger warnings before displaying dairy products. Thank you.
Get over yourself.
I don’t get it. Your shirt design (as well as your explanation of why made it) seems to be making light of rape every bit as much as the original Penny-Arcade strip.
Seems like if you really cared about rape victims, there’d be more fruitful things you could do to actually help them than wasting energy (and causing others to do the same) over this minor “controversy”.
At this point, it’s no longer about helping rape victims or potential rape victims. It’s clearly just a personal feud (as evident from your discursive rant ranging from complaints about foul language to “lazy design”).
Let me start by saying that I am fiercely anti-violence.
I have never been in a fight.
In high school, I volunteered at a women’s shelter.
I donate money to various political endeavors that support equality for all people, and that help prevent violence.
I have picketed against California’s Prop 8, and in support of women’s reproductive health.
Recently, I invested 40+ hours of my own time in a benefit concert helping an organization focused on women escaping violent environments.
For you, and those like-minded, to imply that I should feel bad–or am directly contributing–to violence against anyone for enjoying a webcomic that makes tasteless jokes, shame on you. Especially when you link to a ‘rape joke that is actually funny’ on every page of your blog.
Why are you allowed to enjoy jokes about rape that speak to your language, but I’m not afforded the same benefit? And yes–Wanda Sykes stating that women will be raped if they jog at night, and that men (not ‘a man’, but ‘men’, as she was clearly addressing males everywhere) would horribly abuse a woman’s body if only her consciousness were detached from her body (don’t they call that date rape?)–those are rape jokes, just as much as any other. But they’re okay for you because she put it in a way that you like.
Furthermore, it is somehow okay for you to participate (and produce!) a performance group where you label yourself as a bitch and imply that you are sexually promiscuous. Surely I don’t need to draw you a diagram demonstrating that labeling yourself with a derogatory and vulgar term while implying that you are indiscriminate with your sexuality doesn’t do much to advance your above-professed cause. Heck, I don’t subscribe to the concept of a ‘rape culture’, but I can see where your burlesque act would fit in quite nicely. Though, upon consideration, I guess it would be more of a flow chart than a diagram.
But me, on the other hand, I’m contributing to a culture that propagates rape by laughing at a joke I like and standing firm in my support of freedom of speech and thought. By believing that it doesn’t matter that you don’t like how PA responded to the controversy, I am actively contributing to abusing women is patently absurd.
By that logic, I also support violence by playing violent video games. Never mind the fact that I am actively non-violent, and harshly critical of those that propagate and participate in actual violence.
You’ve shown me that there exists such radicalism (and radicals) in feminism, that my time and money are not needed. And before you object to my usage of that word, in my mind: A radical is someone who believes not only that their belief is the only correct line of thought, but that no other thoughts should be tolerated. You are a radical.
But in a way, I would like to thank you, and those like you. You’ve shown me that a) radical feminists obviously have no problem making their issues heard and known, and b) made me realize that I value free thought–the very essence of our being– more than supporting your cause, regardless of how noble your intentions are.
In short, by your operating in such a radical, black and white manner, I now understand that people like me are not needed by your cause. You’ve obviously got these issues covered.
All future monies and activism on my part that would have normally been focused on women’s rights issues will be squarely directed at advocating free thought and speech.
I should think you, or rather the booth at the mall that prints names on jerseys should thank you.
We now have a set of Jersey that say ‘DickWolves’ on the back. We will be wearing them to PAX.
I found the comic distasteful, but what you are doing is the worst kind of emotional alarmist nonsense. It’s disgusting and no different from radicals wanting to kill people for drawing Mohammed.I will not tolerate people who think there experience dictate what others can say or how they can express themselves.
Do you like living in a country were a women is free to talk about being raped? That’s the same freedom the lets people express themselves how they want. IF you want a group to have control over what can be said, I suggest you look at history. It’s seldom the women who end up on top.
I watch action movies, but I don’t condone killing. I enjoyed back to the future, but I don’t condone changing the time stream. I’m sure you enjoy many pieces of expression, where if taken as literal examples of things you like doing. Did Shakespeare condone teens killing themselves? did he go around Denmark killing messengers?
No? hey, maybe it was fiction~ Now might be a good time for you to look up the word ‘fiction’.
YOU are in the wrong here. Completely, and utterly wrong.
Rape isn’t a “good thing”, obviously. I just thought the word “Dickwolves” in and of itself was a funny name, and I liked the design of the shirt.
You should be happy that they catered to a vocal minority, to avoid hurting any who have been traumatically affected. I think the Penny Arcade people have been far more mature about this then you have, but that doesn’t necessarily mean your arguments are less valid.
Community members from both sides, however, should be ashamed!
(I am a survivor)
You really make it seem so easy with your presentation but I find this topic to be really something which I think I would never understand. It seems too complicated and very broad for me. I am looking forward for your next post, I will try to get the hang of it!
I just wanted to point out that Penny-Arcade also does Charity work and a bunch of other great things. So portraying them in such a negative light and saying all they do is rape jokes is pretty horrible.
What does Kirbybits do other then wear her issues on her shoulder and make it a point to tell everyone about it who will listen? She sounds like a completely insufferable humanbeing that no one wants to be around.
So I guess what they did makes it okay for you to make a shirt out of their intellectual property and sell it? Wait no, it doesnt
Understood on The Accused. Feel free to swap out that title with one that you feel depicts an accurate rape scenario, and reapply the hypothetical.
The more I think about various rape scenes in mainstream media (and I’m a feminist woman with her undergrad in film, so I’ve seen most of them), the more I do think that there is a degree of responsibility when you’re putting content into the world. This gets dicier when it comes to art – as I read somewhere recently in an article about the difference between art and design, “design solves problems, art creates problems,” which would inherently suggest that simply getting a reaction out of people, regardless of what the reaction is, is part of the art and not the “fault” of the artist.
I think when it specifically relates to issues of oppression and marginalized groups, if what you’re putting out as content is paying into existing systems of oppression and marginalization, you’re not creating a problem; you’re merely propping up these systems that are already in place. In that case, engaging people on their worst assumptions or beliefs about others and not *doing* anything with it other than allowing those beliefs to continue and feed into your work and its message…I think there is some degree of responsibility or guilt there.
Longview ALMOST got at the exact question I have, but unfortunately got side tracked on a discussion of the slippery slope. My question is thich is the following -
The original comic did not minimize rape at all – in fact, it portrayed it as the absolute worst thing imaginable. Yes it was used in the context of a joke, but the way it was used strengthens (not diminishes) the horror.
@kirbybits – “Because you’re asking the audience to laugh at rape” – you’re not, you’re laughing at the insensitivity of someone who would allow this horrific act to occur. Why does that minimize the act?
I’m trying to write this without sounding like an asshole who’s explaining humor to you, so please keep that in mind (additionally, I usually imagine someone I know and like saying things said in comments over beers, and that helps me try to give the benefit of the doubt in terms of tone).
So, a lot of the way this strip is using rape is to prompt the “nervous laughter” response in the reader (please see the link to the right called “A Woman Walks Into A Rape, Uh, Bar” for a lot more explanation about this). Your eye gets to the second panel, and the phrase “raped to sleep by the dickwolves” is 1) a surprising phrase construction in 2) a fictional game that 3) is describing an act that is both heinous and completely unknowable, both because “Dickwolves” aren’t real, and because you don’t know what rape is like. (Assuming the reader isn’t a rape survivor, which I think PA’s behavior on the matter has demonstrated was their assumption.) The problem with this is that rape is *not* imaginary, and using the experience of a victim as a way to get people to giggle nervously isn’t particularly kind. Putting forth the idea that rape is something to be laughed at (and it’s a web comic, they tell jokes, their words are designed to be laughed at) contributes to rape culture.
I said this earlier on twitter and I didn’t get 10 people immediately disagreeing with me, so I’m assuming it’s a decent metaphor: Let’s say you’re in a room filled with people. All of these people are farting, constantly. Is any one fart “responsible” for how horrible the room smells? But is any one fart *not* contributing to how horrible the room smells? Is asking someone who complains about the smell why they found one fart worth complaining about versus another really a productive line of questioning? This is how rape culture works – it’s a lot of small things that all contribute to a much larger thing.
An additional thing to keep in mind, if you can kind of get into the mindset of being someone who’s been raped — the “joke”, like, the “real” joke, is that the hero doesn’t care about the victim. Taken outside of the frame of an MMO, it’s someone begging for help and the person who could help them dismissing them. I realize it’s “not real”, but that type of exchange *happens*, the same way that rape *happens*. Seeing this kind of thing, this scenario that might not be all that far off from your own experience and treatment by others, can be triggering.
I understand your perspective. In an attempt to accomplish something which has never ever been done before on the Internet, I will describe my own perspective, and attempt to change your mind.
I disagree with your interpretation of the comedy. I see this as standard three panel comic where it follows the template:
- Panel 1: Set up situation
- Panel 2: Extend situation to an extreme, where the panel/plot/characters must (seemingly) go a certain direction by panel 3
- Panel 3: Change direction suddenly in a humorous way
To the extent that anyone is laughing in panel 2, the authors have mostly failed, since that means that the build up and opportunity to dramatically shift direction in three has been reduced.
As a result, I do not agree with your interpretation that the goal here was to prompt nervous laughter in panel 2. In fact, the use of the horrific depiction of the situation in panel 2 only further gets the momentum going in the direction setup by panel 1. If people didn’t know or realize how terrible rape was or it was in anyway imaginary, the second panel would be 50% throw away.
To be clear, the structure of this comic should leave no one laughing even a little bit at panel 2, nervously or otherwise.
I do understand how this could be a triggering comic, both in the use/imagery of the term rape and the hero’s indifference. However, because rape here is only used as the most horrific act (as is necessitated by the comic’s structure), I do not feel it makes rape “acceptable”. To quote the definition you link to:
A rape culture is a complex of beliefs that encourages male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm.
In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable as death or taxes. This violence, however, is neither biologically nor divinely ordained. Much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change.
Nothing about the use of the term “rape” here does any of this. It does not encourage sexual aggression; it does not condone physical and emotional terrorism as the norm. It does not assume that sexual violence is a fact of life. You are not supposed to be laughing at rape here – it is nothing but the absolute worst thing that could ever be imagined.
Let’s continue breaking new ground on the internet: I agree with (some of) what you’re saying. I agree especially with your interpretation of what the joke is “supposed” to be doing. However, I’d like to go on to say that the failure on the author’s part to keep people laughing on the third panel instead of the second actually happened. (It’s actually something Jerry talked about way back in one of the first PA TV episodes, how a lot of the time, he ends up putting the actual laugh line in the second panel.)
To continue talking about this, I wouldn’t be comfortable backing up my suppositions without data, which I obviously don’t have regarding when the majority of people laugh when reading that comic for the first time. I can tell you that when I read the comic, the line I laughed at was the line in the second panel, and I have heard many others discuss (not just now but back when it first came out) that they laughed at the line too. (And no, I didn’t have a “problem” with the original comic — however, I’m very unwilling to say “well the first comic rape survivors complained about wasn’t actually bad,” because that’s dismissive and implies that their complaints weren’t valid just because I didn’t share them. Just because I laugh at something doesn’t mean it’s not a part of rape culture and doesn’t mean that it can’t/won’t trigger others or doesn’t deserve to be examined.)
So yes – I agree with you about the way the comic is structured and how it’s “supposed” to be read. That’s not how I ended up interpreting it, and others have been vocal that that’s not how they interpreted it either. Whether that’s because we’re bad at reacting to comedy or Jerry was bad at writing it that particular time, I don’t know. All I know is that a lot of people laughed at the raped-to-sleep line, and laughing about that act of rape is, y’know…contributing to rape culture. I do see how “we ended up writing the comic in such a way as to fail the three-panel setup and so the timing of joke was off and ended up making people laugh,” is a lot less cut and dry than, “let’s make a joke about rape durr hurr hurrr”. I totally am willing to acknowledge that, and acknowledge that it most likely was not their intention when they got out of bed that morning to trigger rape survivors and upset anti-rape advocates.
All of that said, and even if I was like, “omg, 100% correct, I totally agree!” The situation is unfortunately well beyond the stage of, “Mike and Jerry made a comic that upset some people.”
Amazing. I think we mostly agree. I really like the guys, and after listening to a lot of their commentary, I genuinely think that nothing could have been further from their minds.
Interesting thought about the fact that people unintentionally laughing at a rape line would be contributory, though does that extend to non-comedic contexts as well? If someone laughed at the rape scene in “The Accused”, would that make the creators of the movie guilty? Or would that just be a messed up person? Obviously it’s not quite the same since the occurence of the term “rape” here comes so close to where people are supposed to laugh, but there were jokes in that movie, just not quite as close in proximity.
Further, I also agree they totally screwed up everything that came after the comic and blew something that was a very understandable simple mistake into something that undermines (unintentionally or otherwise) the innocence of the original act.
As much as the death threats and personal attacks have sucked, I’ve managed to have enough actual discussion and conversation with people, both in the industry and the gamer community, to give me a little bit of hope about the future of online discourse. It’s actually the exact sort of, “we do not have to agree, but we are being respectful of each other while disagreeing,” sentiment that I always felt PAX represented really well — all gamers and all gameplay have a place in the community.
Someone suggested to me that I start an “alternaPAX” and I was really surprised that they thought that was something I wanted to do, so I’ve been trying to be super clear, both here and on Twitter, that “ending” PAX was not and is not my intention in speaking out. I was trying to protect my “place at the table” as it were, as an industry person and a gamer and a fan and someone who had a good time at PAX East last year. I was trying to say I *would really like to go to/speak at PAX*, but kind of can’t what with this here triggery merch the organizers sell…not that I think PAX should be over because of a t-shirt.
I really hope they apologize, and if they really can’t feel sorry for hurting the people they’ve hurt, I hope they can at least call for a decent cease-fire that’ll somehow keep PAX a protected space. Someone *else* suggested to me that they just introduce a “family-friendly” clothing rule, which would not only clean up some of the grosser things that some fans thought were appropriate to wear around children, but would handily also cover words with offensive language on them, like the word “dick”.
And to address the nervous laughter thing – I think when it occurs, it’s a sign for the person laughing to check their privilege a little. I was interpreting the original comic as an intentional use of the word “rape” specifically to prompt that response in readers — one privileged person making other privileged people laugh. I find your interpretation more plausible, and honestly just a little kinder and allowing for the possibility (still) that Mike and Jerry will snap out of it and let it go.
So to use your example, if someone’s laughing at The Accused…actually, that’s a really troubling example. The rape scene in that movie is one of the most titillating, “it’s hot but you’re supposed to feel bad but it’s still hot” depictions of rape in cinema history. That to me actually DOES seem like a very intentional contribution to a lot of the bullshit narratives about rape, who it happens to, what it’s like, etc. I think that the audience has a responsibility for their own reactions, but I do think the filmmakers created something that is pretty grossly inaccurate, as far as what rape is actually like. (Again, if you haven’t checked out that Women Walks Into a Rape article, it talks about a lot of this, I *highly* recommend it in general…my only caveat is that it’s very much written about women being raped by men, and thus it erases survivors of other genders.)
Rape Survivor here.
I have the shirt.
Fuck you if you want to tell me that I’m
giving into rape culture, or oppressed or whatever high fucking horse you are on.
Bugger off.
I’m now beginning to think that there really isn’t any actual thing called “concern trolling” or at least that the example of concern trolling here, namely that of ona-whim’s wasn’t actually concern trolling or any form of trolling but just simply “discussion.” I mean, sure, there’s a “yes, but…” to her posts but there were always “yes, buts….” in the opposing side’s posts too. It’s called argument. And I thought she was actually discussing her position to the best of her ability same as longwing, otherbecky and kirbybits were, until the accusations of “concern trolling” were bandied about. Seriously, actual concern trolling is totally, totally something else.
Hey, guys. I’m a white cis male. I try to understand feminist sentiments as often as I can, and almost 100% find myself supporting of them. The only cases I have doubts about is when conversation quickly turns into female chauvinism.
But that is derailing, sorry for that.
Anyways, ona-whim was on the same side as you. They didn’t find rape culture comical, understood how people could have been offended by it, and thought the “dickwolves” shirt was poor in humor and execution. He just questioned the validity, or rather, sought to understand kirbybits’ reasoning behind the “survivors” shirt.
And it makes me sad that for some reason he started to be accused of trolling, and being called “intellectually lazy”. How could someone be lazy if they disagree on a point and take the time to type out such a careful argument (granted, he had missteps, but his questions were clear)?
Seems like saying “I don’t have to explain you are just so dumb like really dumb” is more intellectually lazy than simply disagreeing and asking questions.
I feel like this is a good representation of the futility of the modern young left wing. While basically agreeing, not being 100% with another group gets oneself ostracized and verbally challenged by the very group you feel like you agree with more, rather than, in this case, rape apologists.
And this discussion has pretty much been taking over by bros highfiving bros, so don’t accuse me of avoiding the actual argument. I think the point is always treating others with respect, which some people just failed to do here. The PA guys and some posters here are guilty of that. Anyways, keep calling out insensitivity when you see it, just keep in mind being insensitive to others just because they haven’t been sexually assaulted seems really weird and backwards.
Peace.
The first amendment. Either censor everything or sensor nothing. PAX is not a site for kids. Its a site for mature nerd/gaming culture members. The have the right to make a “low brow” joke or two. You know why? CAUSE ITS A PLACE FOR MATURE PEOPLE.
First amendment. They could have made a shirt that says “I <3 RAPE!"
is it a god thing? Nope. Not at all. But this is America, home of the FREE. Not home of the over oppressed.
If anyone is ignorant, it’s you.
hey guys
i’m a rape victim. what you’re doing trivializes what i went through. i wish you didn’t use rape to draw a cheap laugh or make a quick buck, especially in the name of feminism. don’t sell rape shirts. this kind of exploitation really has me feeling hurt, especially from somebody who is involved with a cause i identify with more than anything.
please take this shirt down
It’s always sad to see someone let a single traumatic incident come to define their lives, especially when they go to the degree of ruining other peoples’ fun, merchandising and buying habits just because of their own interpretation of such merchandise.
I am incredibly offended of the nature of this shirt. It promotes the murder of animals. I would write a long post about the offensive nature of this shirt but it would be a waste of both your and my time. Please cease selling this shirt immediately or I will take more serious action.
I sincerely hope you get sued.
I’ll be blunt. My sister was raped. Me and her read Penny Arcade, and she laughed at the comic. Who wouldn’t want to be playing WOW, run into a den of canine creatures with every limb a phallic object, and slaughter them? If the Dickwolves shirt was still available We’d definitely buy 2.
The Survivor Guild thing would be a hilarious in-game guild, but anything outside that is just stupid.
Reminds me again why we both got the “porch monkey 4 life” shirts.
Honestly, I don’t see the point in promoting a t-shirt about how you complained about someone else’s t-shirt to be taken down due to your own personal issues. You’re not only antagonizing the issue by parading around with retail product boasting about your “accomplishment” in hopes of revenue and spreading your opinion, but you’re also losing credibility to people beyond the PA scene (I’m a Redditor).
Congrats on winning an empty fight and I hope that dickwolves will not haunt your dreams, but seriously stop acting like you’ve won a goddamn supreme court case.
I don’t want to dismiss your opinion or feelings, but I do want to clarify something – if you check the date stamp on this post, you’ll see it was posted back in October. Right after they released the Dickwolves t-shirt. The shirt was made in reaction to the official t-shirt, for the reasons I say in the post. If those don’t seem clear, I’m game to try and elaborate if you have questions.
If other things I’ve said are informing your opinion, I’d like to hear them, but if part of this is coming from the perception that I posted this and started selling the shirt just now in reaction to Penny Arcade selling their merchandise, I’d like to point out that that isn’t the case.
So you made a shirt released to the fanfare of an article about a bunch of half-understood crap that has the audacity to pretend you’re actually teaching someone something, and not to the fanfare of a victory over some people selling shirts.
There seems to be a little bit of a gap between you and those who don’t see anything wrong with the whole dickwolf thing. Let me break it down a little further than Penny Arcade’s strip attempted to, because it obviously didn’t address where you weren’t seeing eye to eye with them.
So let me get this straight: the big problem here for you is the proposition “These references to dickwolves contribute to rape culture, ie making rape seem like less of a big deal.”
There are two sticking points with this:
1: The original strip (which was apparently so abhorrent) used rape by dickwolves to amplify the severity of the situation. This ONLY works if the reader sees this as an utterly horrible thing; exactly the opposite of reducing our feelings against rape, it uses these feelings to attack the morality of leaving someone in such a situation.
Therefore everyone who didn’t see a reason to complain about the strip has been left mercifully clean of the sin you accuse the strip of doing.
2: When you complain about a shirt about dickwolves doing the same thing, trivialising rape, and yet produce a shirt of dickwolves, indirectly referring to the act of rape by dickwolves and with little cartoon crosses for eyes, it’s A-OK because it’s “survivor humor”. When does it stop being a filthy personal slight and start being a good old joke we can all appreciate? If a rape victim wore PA’s Dickwolves shirt, would that be OK, is it only OK when you say it?
In short, why does this joke belong to you, referring to dickwolves as a representative of rape, where someone else using the sheer idea of a wolf largely made of dicks (trust me, it’s a big part of the original strip’s humor), dissociated from rape, brings out pitchforks?
Do you really feel such a strong need to control how someone else’s intellectual property is used, to the point of using it yourself in the very context that you claim offends you?
in light of the things I’ve discussed in this post you’ve come across as a blinkered, selfish, knee-jerk reactionary whose only real concern is that someone used the word “rape” without first banishing all happiness from their lives forever.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
No one wearing a Dickwolves shirt does to support rape, they do it to support their favorite comic. Not only that, but what person on the street who hasn’t read the comic is going to associate Dickwolves with rape? The only people that associate dickwolves with rape so strongly are Kirbybits and her legion of devout followers, and it’s a shame that those people have to ruin the fun for the larger majority of people who enjoy the comic.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
The blatant double standard and constant intellectual weaseling around the key points of this debate are why I can’t take anything kirbybits writes seriously.
A joke where rape is used to represent a horrible act is condoning rape? Ridiculous.
Where in this comic are women? The only person I see getting raped in this comic is a man. News flash, men actually get raped; not that I’d expect some ignorant feminist to know or understand that. But you know what? We understand that the comic was just that to begin with: a comic. And we understand that the joke about “dickwolves” was just that: a joke. We laugh, we take it with a grain of salt, and we go about our day as usual. If we don’t like the comic, or found it offensive… we’d just stop reading it. Us guys are usually pretty laid back like that. Instead of doing these sensible, rational things, you spend your time moaning and groaning about something which has absolutely nothing to do with you.
Give me one, legitimate reason why a woman (specifically a feminist) should have even be concerned with this comic, unless she were a victim of rape herself (in which case it wouldn’t be exclusively for women to get upset over because male rape victims should theoretically also be getting offended by this.)
It’s about male-on-male rape. Where in that equation do women even appear? If you could provide at least a legitimate answer… well, I still might think you’re over-reacting, but it would at least put some solid logic behind your complaints.
Well, it’s about wolf on male rape, technically. And I know a male rape victim (not by wolves, of course) no longer attending PAX or PAX East due to this.
free speech. don’t tell someone what they can and can’t say. furthermore, i think there are much more trying issues for someone to write a whole essay, tshirt, and long reponses to than the joking use of rape in a comic. mythologically, i might add.
you, and the rest of the offended group, have completely overeacted about nothing special. its people like you that kept artistic expression down. just look at the censorship 60 years ago. most of my favourite movies, tv shows, and art wouldn’t be possible back then.
im sorry but i value that far more than the feelings of some oversensitive whiny group who probably complains at every chance.
you seem educated. cool. instead of blogging about a few select issues, why don’t you go out there and actually make a difference by devoting your education to and actively working towards the social change you desire instead of telling people how it should be.
I want everyone to know, after reading this article, I was literally disgusted. Something in my stomach wouldn’t settle right. It’s a sick time when things like this are allowed and no one bats an eye.
Oh, wait, did you think I was talking about the dickwolves thing?
No, I mean this article specifically.
YOU are the problem with America right now. 110% through. I’m not exaggerating. Pig-headed idiots touting whatever transparent banner they can to get themselves paid attention to.
There’s a thousand different problems in the world, and you’re trying to fight over a webcomic? One that you *clearly* don’t even understand? Seriously?
It was showing the absurdity of MMORPGS, where any quest you do is instantly negated by the people you freed or killed coming back within five minutes. It wasn’t about the rape, it was just to point out how little we even think about the storylines behind the quests. “The Mayor wants me to save the town! I’ll save these 5 and then we’re good”.
I’ve dealt with rape first hand, so don’t force-feed this crap to people like it’s the only way to think. Get over it, get over yourself, and get the fuck out.
Exactly.
This whole “Rape Culture” thing is BS. ONE webcomic that doesn’t even use rape as the center of the plot will not cause people to have a better opinion of rape.
As I said before, kirbybits is paranoid. Just because it doesn’t have it’s own official website about how bad rape is, doesn’t mean it says rape is okay.
Let’s not skimp on the part where she tried to make some normal people feel bad for selling shirts representing a joke creature and then decided to sell a shirt referencing the same thing that violates the rules she set out to enforce her outrage in the first place.
That’s annoying too.
The sad part is, she won’t respond to this.
This is bad.
You get all whiny about something you don’t understand.
The “Dickwolves” are put in there not to praise rape or to make it seem funny. They are there to make people think about ridiculous quests that say you only need to save x amount of people, and the quest doesn’t even care about the fate of the remaining prisoners or whatever. It does not in any way portray rape as good. They only say the word rape ONCE in the entire comic as far as I know. And now, you’re creating a T-SHIRT portraying a “Dickwolves survivors guild”? Now that is stupid. It’s on the level where it makes me laugh.
Conclusion: You’re paranoid.
Just because something says rape once or the word dick, it doesn’t mean OH MY GOD LOOK AT THIS! LOOK AT THIS! THEY’RE SAYING RAPE IS OKAY.
The comic actually basically says that not saving all the prisoners is BAD because maybe something horrible is happening to them like maybe THEY ARE GETTING RAPED and no one should let that happen. Not “Hey everyone, rape is okay guys and it’s really funny too”
I am not a gamer. I am not very good at the internet. A friend alerted me to the controversy and I do want to say thank you for standing up and writing this. It may seem small, but it’s important in my eyes.
From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
just sort of looking at this from an analytical point of view, the symbolism of the shirt doesn’t really say what you think it says.
let’s look: what we essentially have are two things: a phoenix and a dead “dickwolf”. the phoenix represents, most commonly, rebirth, specifically the triumphant rise *from* one’s own death. more on that later. the dickwolf itself is an ambiguous thing. depending on the context, it means wildly different things. in the original context of the comic, it is the embodiment of the cruel suffering the NPCs experience that, the indifferent MMO player couldn’t really care less about. rape is suffering, and wolves are terrible creatures of yore. it’s a hyperbole used to make the player’s indifference all the more laughably absurd. after all, wouldn’t the “humane” thing to do be releasing all of the prisoners instead of being done at releasing 5? regardless, i must digress–for you personally and most vocally, the dickwolf is a symbol of rape itself. you take it out of its original context to do so, but that’s what it means to you. you have the right to construct a new context, surely, but two words that mean different things surely can’t be synonyms, can they?
regardless, the dickwolf is depicted as being dead. on the surface, your intent is to perhaps show that “rape” is dead? more clearly, the “dickwolf” is dead in parallel to the shirt that has brought you so much ire being made unavailable for purchase. this, however adds significance to the placement of the two key symbols
the phoenix rises above the dead dickwolf. phoenixes generally tend to rise *from* the dead, specifically their own dead bodies. this phoenix is not depicted as triumphing *over* the dickwolf, but rather it seems that the phoenix is the rebirth of the spirit of the dickwolf, which rises to overcome the controversy that killed it in the first place.
furthermore, the title “dickwolves survivor guild” is ambiguous in its meaning. it could just as easily be a guild of dickwolves who have survived as it could be survivors of dickwolves, and it is the ambiguity which has lead you away from seeing the symbolism inherent in the layout of the shirt itself.
in short, the shirt symbolizes the triumph of the dickwolf, and the concept that it will survive, even if forced into another form.
” the dickwolf itself is an ambiguous thing. depending on the context, it means wildly different things. in the original context of the comic, it is the embodiment of the cruel suffering the NPCs experience that, the indifferent MMO player couldn’t really care less about.”
Not quite ambiguous…it’s a rapist. The comic explicitly identifies dickwolves as rapists. It’s not a symbol of rape, it’s a rapist.
a flag may symbolize a country, but it is not the country. being and symbolizing are two wildly different things.
you’re missing the point and arguing off topic.
the point of my argument is the use of the symbols on the shirt, not what the wolf in fact was or was not.
I never said that the wolves were not accused of rape in the comic, i said that the aforementioned rape makes them a hyperbole used to make the average MMO player’s reaction to such a moral situation absurd.
“I never said that the wolves were not accused of rape in the comic, i said that the aforementioned rape makes them a hyperbole used to make the average MMO player’s reaction to such a moral situation absurd.”
You said, about what the Dickwolves represent/symbolize:
“for you personally and most vocally, the dickwolf is a symbol of rape itself. ”
And I’m correcting you — for me, personally and most vocally, the Dickwolf represents rapists. Not the concept of rape. Not the experience of rape. It represents rapists, those who commit rape.
I feel that this correction also means your analysis needs revision, since what you’re trying to say Dickwolves symbolize isn’t what I said or am saying.
Are you seriously this dense?
She clearly is.
She made a claim that dickwolves represent real-life rapists, and trivialise that, when the whole point of them is to represent something impossibly horrendous. This is clear to everyone with half a brain, but obviously not to Kirby Bits.
It’s almost like saying that the statement “Hitler was a terrible human being,” trivialises the holocaust and is an anti-semitic statement.
As far as perpetuating “rape culture” goes, I’d love to know why a shirt implying you’ve been raped by dickwolves DOESN’T trivialise rape for someone who gets all upset at their mere mention.
“I’d love to know why a shirt implying you’ve been raped by dickwolves DOESN’T trivialise rape for someone who gets all upset at their mere mention.”
Survivor humor.
So publically trivialising rape doesn’t perpetuate rape culture when you’ve been raped?
So, if I rape Gabe and Tycho, they can sell Dickwolf shirts, right?
Look, nobody is perfect. It’s entirely probable that at some point in your life you’ll be doing your usual thing, let’s say arguing against and trying to censor something arbitrary you find tasteless, when you unintentionally show off your hypocrisy by, oh, I don’t know, begin to sell a cheap knockoff of merchandise that you got pulled because of it perpetuating “rape culture”. Some people point this out to you, publicly.
I’m making a whole new paragraph to repeat myself: Nobody is perfect. The idea is not that people never fuck up and accidentally stumble into topics of society, culture and privilege that they weren’t previously aware of. That shit happens, I have done it myself. My point is, when this happens to you (and again, it probably will at some point, because you are not perfect), you have two choices in how to react:
Option One: You say, pretty much verbatim and regardless of the situation’s specifics, “I am sorry. Upsetting you was not my intention. I am clearly at fault regarding this issue, regardless of the validity of your standpoint.
Option Two: You act like an asshole. You try and derail the dialog your fans are attempting to have with you via the “misunderstanding” that anyone that disagrees with you on any issue is uneducated or attempting to derail you from the issue at hand. You also happen to exploit what you initially appalled you, and caused you to express your outrage at, for financial gain.
It is this choice that shows you who you truly are, a person fighting for a cause, misstepping and occasionally doing wrong due to ignorance and then tries to right her wrongs. Or, a bitch that tries to appear zealous for status and/or approval and simply denies or ignores anything pointing out how, or why she’s wrong.
The beauty of the choice in question is that even if you find yourself acting more like the weak, hypocritical and egotistic bitch latter described you can often be forgiven if you can undo the harm you’ve caused. I suggest you try that, if for nothing else than to explore all available options.
Wait, are you saying I was wrong about something, or that she’s a hypocrite and that her ignoring what I said about the main point of the debate makes her a bitch?
I was just trying to explain how she’s a hypocrite in an extremely long-winded fashion, as she has ignores any valid argument she comes across. That made me think a more pretentious touch would be required to make her address those arguments, hence me stealing your argument for the long copypaste segment.
I’m glad to know that, since if that had been an attack on me, I didn’t fully understand it, and also since I still haven’t seen any satisfactory answers to what I felt was a summing up of the views of everyone typing on this whole dickwolf debacle who hasn’t missed the point entirely.
Just because you feel comfortable with a joke about rape because you have experienced it doesn’t mean someone else who has also experienced it is not offended.
Your shirt is offensive and trivializes rape. Let me say that again. YOUR shirt is offensive and trivializes rape. At a more basic level, YOU have trivialized rape. I am not saying dickwolves didn’t, but they had the decency to take it down. In my eyes they are looking better than you right now.
You need to realize you are offending people just as much if not more than they were, and look at your two options you gave earlier. Right now you are choosing option 2.
I don’t wanna think of my experience with rape. I don’t want to walk down the street and see this shirt on someone and deal with the emotions it brings up out of no where, even if it doesn’t specifically say anything about rape. Dickwolves didn’t either. But we all know the context.
At its most simplest form, YOU made a cartoon tshirt about rape and what is worse, you are associating it with a charitable donation. Ill write a check and keep your offensive filth off my body, thanks.
Its despicable.
Thank you for commenting here –
you’re the first person to talk to me about this or say something along these lines in a public space that I’ve seen/had access to. [Edit: While going through the comments, I actually see at least one other commenter asking for me to take this down, which I somehow managed to approve but not actually read and think about. So I'm straight-up an asshole. The reason that I didn't notice, crappy as it is, probably has something to do with getting about 400 comments across 3 posts in the day the request was made, but it's not an excuse.] I’m not trying to imply that it was anyone’s responsibility to speak up before now, just that to a large degree, I haven’t revisited the shirt and its purpose in a while, and so this comment is the thing that’s made me look back at it. I made this as a response to the Dickwolves t-shirt, and leaving whatever ego I have tied up in the endeavor at the door, I see your point. This is a protest to something that is no longer for sale, and so it doesn’t need to exist anymore.Again, I appreciate the pushback – thank you for making me think and keeping me honest.
Just saying, but since this shirt also says “Dickwolves” on it, doesn’t it have a trigger warning too?
Really appreciate this posting. I would also love to buy the T-shirt, but until RAINN clears up its position on ensuring that it doesn’t work with anti-trans organisations, I don’t feel fully comfortable donating to it (see: http://humorlessfeminist.tumblr.com/post/2397826002/trans-friendly-rape-survivor-resources)Is there any way I could buy a shirt and get the money donated to a rape survivor resource of my choice? I’d really like one!
Thank you for reminding me about this! When #MooreandMe was going on, I made the mental note to update this post and have all future donations go to the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center, an organization that (to my knowledge) provides services to all rape survivors, regardless of their gender identity.
Updating the post now, and should any new information about BARCC arise, or if a national-level organization that explicitly provides services without excluding certain genders can be suggested, I will continue to update who the funds are donated to.
I’m sorry for starting new threads all the time, but for some reason once a comment has a certain number of replies, the “Reply” button disappears for me.
Why is what ona-whim is doing considered concern-trolling when the reaction to the original comic could be considered the same thing? This was your example of concern-trolling:
Q: Shouldn’t we look at what they meant?
A: It doesn’t matter what they were trying to do, they caused real damage here.
Q: Yes but, shouldn’t we look at what they meant?
Now, same set up but with the reaction and the PA guys’ responses:
Q: Don’t you guys think this is wrong? You’re perpetuating rape culture and glorifying rapists!
A: We don’t feel that we glorified rapists at all. We disagree. It’s okay to disagree sometimes.
Q: Okay, but don’t you guys think this is wrong? You’re perpetuating rape culture and glorifying rapists!
To me, that seems like exactly the same thing.
Ahleeeshah, the problem here is, again, intent versus consequences. To look at it from another perspective, remove the intent from your previous round of questions:
Q: You caused real hurt and suffering with that comic. You emotionally scarred an entire community with that work. Don’t you think you should apologize?
A: We don’t think they should be emotionally scarred because that’s not what we meant to do. Therefor we’re not going to say sorry for hurting all these people because what we meant and what we did are the same thing.
Q? But can’t you see that your intent didn’t translate? You hurt these people. What you meant to do isn’t at issue here. *What you did* is at issue here.
An addendum to this comment. I feel I must reiterate Kirbybits’s really excellent point on this one:
“If your intent isn’t to cause harm, and you break someone’s nose, you done fucked up, and you say you’re sorry. If your intent is to cause pain, and you break someone’s nose, I guess you feel good about it. Either way *someone’s nose is broken*.”
I can understand that, actually. I have a feeling, though, that if they apologized it would more be along the lines of “We’re sorry if anyone was offended by the comic,” and I’ve read enough apologies to know that a comment like that wouldn’t go over well. They’d have to say “We’re sorry that people were hurt by what we said, we regret saying it, and will endeavor to be more understanding in the future.”
There is a problem in wanting people to apologize in the right way, especially when those people don’t think they behaved the way you think they did.
It isn’t a question of apologizing correctly, its a question of apologizing at all. Saying “I’m sorry you have a problem with my comic” is like saying “I’m sorry you have a problem with me playing music at 3am”.
Remove the “I’m sorry” or the “We apologize” from the front of an apology. If the statement suddenly becomes something other than an apology… then it wasn’t an apology to begin with.
To use your examples, strip the apology from the front:
“anyone was offended by the comic”
“people were hurt by what we said, we regret saying it, and will endeavor to be more understanding in the future”
The first apology makes the whole thing about the victim. The sentence is incomplete, but hopefully this illustrates the target of the sentence a bit better. Without the “we’re sorry” the sentence is all about the people who’ve been offended.
The second apology is about the mistake. It’s still an apology even when you remove the “We’re sorry” from the beginning. The fact that it’s a complete sentence is coincidence, but look at who it talks about. It still mentions the victim, but that tiny change in wording makes it *about* the offense, and not the reaction.
Should also have said that I do agree with you. It’s very unlikely that PA will apologize. I’m just trying to demonstrate the difference between real and fake apologies.
When you carefully word your apology to avoid accepting blame, you can’t turn around and get angry at people who pick apart your careful wording.
Wikipedia refers to it as “Weasel Words”, careful phrasing designed to avoid pinning down responsibility, blame, or citation.
The funny thing about this is that we agree and we also disagree. While I don’t think they intended the comic to be offensive (disagree), I can also understand that people were hurt by it regardless of intent (agree).
As I said in a thread above, I don’t like confrontation. I don’t like upsetting people, so even if I didn’t mean to offend someone, I will usually end up apologizing anyway. This is just how I am, though. It’s pretty clear that the PA guys aren’t like this, so any apology they give is going to be meaningless.
Actually Ahleeeshah, that means that we completely agree. I have no doubt that PA didn’t start out with the intent to cause harm (Though I do believe they went that route when they announced the shirt, so maybe not a full agreement there?).
Either way, if you’re seeing how the consequences can be harmful, regardless of intent, then we’re totally on the same page.
I’ve been reading the comments but not really saying anything more because I didn’t feel like arguing, but the one thing that really makes me angry about sites like Shakesville is the attitude Other Becky is showing. The “It is NOT OUR JOB to educate you. That shit is exhausting,” attitude. I am a woman. I consider myself a feminist. I read Shakesville regularly and usually agree with everything said there. I did, however, get banned from commenting on the site. I have never once said anything disrespectful or rude to anyone there, but not agreeing with them, and then wanting to have a discussion about that disagreement, got me banned. I’ve since learned that they consider that site a personal blog and not a public discussion space (despite the fact that there are multiple posters and tons of commenters), so perhaps this was the wrong thing to expect of them.
The attitude of not wanting to educate people to bring them over to your side is lazy and unhelpful. If you don’t talk to people and show them your worldview and your experiences, how do you expect them to ever agree with you? The whole point of rational discussion is to try to get more people to your side. Instead, you just reaffirm incorrect beliefs about what feminism is. I can completely understand banning or chastising rude or disrespectful people, but if someone is trying to have an honest discussion with you, making them understand your point of view is very important.
Also, saying ona-whim is insulting or ignorant because he said Longwing was rational? How was ona-whim even supposed to know if Longwing was male?
ona-whim was insulting and ignorant for a lot of other reasons. (And was supposed to know Longwing was male because Longwing said so.)
As far as the “it’s not our job to educate you” — it’s not. kirbybits also said that, and this is her space, and she makes the rules. And it is exhausting. Calmly, patiently, gently explaining to every individual who wants to know why, exactly, rape is bad, and what rape culture is, and why rape jokes are not okay, and why deliberately mocking people who stand up and say that rape jokes hurt them is contemptible — some days I can manage it. Some days I can’t. And some days I want to tell anyone who needs that explained to them to fuck off and grow a soul. Because the explanations are always the same. And the counter-arguments are always the same. And the people who think they’re being rational and dispassionate and oh-so-clever about this issue that is not at all academic to me *all sound the same*. That’s why Feminism 101 resources exist. Expecting survivors to have the same discussion over and over and over again is not reasonable. Because there are a lot of things I’d rather do than talk about rape. What I’d really prefer to do is go on about my life without these regular reminders that I and my pain are not to be respected or taken seriously. kirbybits gave ona-whim links to useful resources. If zhe actually wanted to learn, zhe could have read them.
I think the problem with just referring people to links is that those links often don’t answer the questions people have. I’ve read extensively all the links Shakesville did with Feminism 101 and rape culture and all of that. None of those answered questions I had at the time. The links are generic, and don’t cover everything. You can read through them and still have no idea what to think, and you can emerge with questions. I know there is no way to make it specific to every situation, and I know that it has to be tiring explaining the same thing over and over again to different people. However, I think that’s part of being an advocate for change. You can’t expect people to just blindly follow you without understanding things, and giving them a pamphlet does not carry the same weight of experience as someone that has taken the words there and internalized them.
I know that is asking a lot, especially of people that have lived through trauma and pain, but I know that people are more inspired by other people than by walls of text.
I can understand your point, and that’s why I try to educate when I can, but for people to *expect* it of me is not appropriate.
Also, educating oneself doesn’t answer all the questions. But reading through the Feminism 101 links (not just the excerpts, as some people tend to do) (I’m not implying you’re one of them) at Shakesville, and reading extensively at Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog, does tend to modify them. For example, anyone who can read “The Terrible Bargain We Have Regretfully Struck” and still try to frame zhir part of a discussion as the rational, dispassionate approach is not someone I’m going to be able to have a conversation with, because zhe has failed to absorb the fundamental message that *this is personal*. On the other hand, I’ve had some very productive conversations with people who have only just begun their Feminism 101 reading but are actively trying to understand rather than have a debate.
I don’t want to have to inspire people. It’s tiring. It’s burdensome. I’m willing to engage with them, but they need to supply their own inspiration.
At what point does a discussion become a debate, though? I used to hate having serious discussions with people because it almost seemed like a fight to me and I really don’t like confrontation. I had to learn that people disagreeing with me wasn’t necessarily fighting, and it was possible for two people to have a debate without ever being angry at the other person, regardless of their views.
I can completely understand that educating someone is tiresome, especially when there are other resources out there. I know that referring to that is easier and less exhausting, but it is also somewhat dismissive. I’ve seen people (not you) respond to others with only “Read ____. Now go away,” and that’s not helping anything. God forbid you come back after reading those with other questions, or come back and still disagree with them on an issue, because they usually won’t discuss it with you.
I just went and read the article you reference in your comment, and I understand what the poster is saying. I agree with most of what the poster is saying there. I can also say that I still don’t think the PA guys in any way intended to belittle the experience of those that have been sexually abused. Someone was hurt regardless of intent, and I can understand that, but expecting them to apologize doesn’t seem like the right way to do it, especially when an apology such as “We’re sorry you were hurt by what we wrote,” wouldn’t be accepted.
Other Becky, if I could vote this comment up more, I would. Bravo and well said.
Thanks, Longwing.
Ahleeeshah, I can certainly understand where you’re coming from. I myself have had long and impassioned arguments about advocacy and winning people to a cause. I’m a firm believer in staying calm in the face of my own anger (I fail at this quite often, but it’s an ideal for which I strive).
However, my decision to advocate from such a position is a personal thing. My choice of tone is, quite simply, a distraction.
The technical term is derailing. I’m terrible at explaining it, so please be patient with me and understand that I’m not trying to be dismissive or witty here.
When you argue a question of tone, you’re not arguing about an incident. You’re arguing about arguing about an incident.
[Something sexist happens] -> [Outrage occurs] -> [We discuss the tone of the outrage]
It’s one step removed from the actual issue. Arguing about tone distracts from the main problem.
[PA (intentionally or otherwise) mocks rape survivors] -> [People call out PA on the issue] -> [We come in and discuss weather the those wronged are being adequately polite to PA]
I’m still not 100% on the tone thing. I do think that you can change more minds by being calm. However, I hope the above example explains why asking these questions in the context of a debate about PA’s clearly inappropriate behavior creates a diversion from the real problem.
I see what you’re saying. The issue for me is that if you don’t try to discuss things with non-believers, the outrage will only ever be that. It will be a group of people angry about something, and nothing will change, because the people causing the outrage will never be able to understand why you are so outraged.
Which is exactly why I try to discuss this issue with nonbelievers. Talking about this, as calmly as I can manage, is what I can do. I’m just trying to stay focused on the issue, instead of the completely tangled knot of everything that follows after.
So I was directed to this post by one of the other commentators, having not really known much about this issue. I since talked to them about it more in person and we disagreed about a lot but they did encourage me to post one point. Coming at it from the outside, I wasn’t able to get that the DSG shirt was a counter to the PA offering. I read through the article and saw the mention of it seeming like a jersey. Until that point I thought the DSG shirt was the offending merch. I looked at the PA store afterward and saw the actual jersey thing which is terribly unappealing. The point is I thought this shirt was a part of the same bad joke. I really did think that the DSG shirt was the bad one, because I didn’t see how it was condemning rape culture.
“Aaaaaand now I want to make buttons that say “I survived the Dickwolves and all I got was this lousy rape culture.””
Why not make a shirt of that? The message in that statement is clear and unequivocal and makes it clear what the problem with the Dickwolf issue is. All I’m saying is that it’s not clear from the shirt.
Hi, thanks for commenting. The reason I collaborated to make this shirt is because, as I said in the original post, the PA “official” shirt was so terribly uncreative. When I saw it, my immediate reaction was, “if you’re going to reference that comic strip, that’s about the laziest way to do it.” And then I thought, “I mean for one thing, why reference the rapists? It’d be much better to reference the survivors.” [lightbulb]
To me – and even though I helped make it, I’m under no illusions that somehow I get to dictate interpretation – the DSG shirt is about raising visibility of survivors and the concept of supporting survivors. I think there is a rather wide gap of meaning between, “This shirt references rapists (and my wearing it tacitly supports them)” and “This shirt references rape survivors and their support networks (and my wearing it tacitly supports them)”. That is what I think, but it is not the only way to think, obviously.
I mentioned in another comment above that I know at least one rape survivor doesn’t like the DSG shirt. I understand (or think I understand) the sentiment of, “why are you still talking about this/drawing attention to this *at all*?” I understand that the DSG shirt can still be a trigger for people. I’m still not sure how to navigate that in a way that is respectful and not dismissive to other rape survivors.
Unlike the PA shirt, which is designed to use rape as a punchline, the DSG shirt is a message of support for rape survivors. I can see how, not knowing about the issue or the background, you’d interpret it the way you did/do, I suppose, but I don’t understand how the mention of a rape survivors group comes across as offensive to you. If PA had released the DSG shirt or something with a similar sentiment (and had donated profits to RAINN or another rape survivor support charity instead of keeping the money), I wouldn’t have made this shirt because I wouldn’t have had a reason to.
I didn’t actually say the shirt was offensive (it’s not). All I was saying is, I didn’t understand it as raising visibility of rape or survivors. People wear “zombie apocalypse survivor” shirts a lot, but that generally means they’re fans of the zombie apocalypse genre, not opposed to it. Friends of mine wore shirts from an event called “Survive the night” that was essentially a massive game of monster tag. They had survivors shirts for actually making it through without being tagged. The word that links “survivor” on your shirt to “rape” is Dickwolves. This means that to understand it as a rape survivors shirt you have to be familiar with the issue. However even to those familiar with the issue the shirt could be said to trivialize survivor’s groups in the same way the PTSD trigger on the announcement trivialized the trauma of rape. Basically the only people that are going to translate the message correctly are people who were already aware of the problem.
Your message is a very good message, but that shirt is a terrible messenger.
This is similar to what ona-whim is saying, but I think the issue here is that I can see people who don’t know the controversy surrounding the original comic buying this shirt and wearing it as an extension to the original joke. At that point, the meaning behind it is gone and it’s glorifying the joke which was so offensive to everyone to begin with.
Hi Ahleeeshah — I just approved a whole day’s batch of comments, so if you look up at the replies to ona-whim, I think you’ll find responses that address your point.
This post is awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed your responses to concerned/privileged troll #2.
Unrelated to my other replies, I have a more general comment/question about the article.
First, this is awesome.
Second, I’m trying to figure out a thorny socialization issue and I could use the help of people who have a better grasp of social interaction than me.
Put simply, is it appropriate for a man to wear this shirt?
The intent, of course, is to show solidarity. However, given that it’s a shirt about rape survival, I worry that I’d be trivializing the very real plight of those who’ve endured harassment and assault.
I’d LOVE to wear this shirt to conventions, basically in the hopes of making someone wearing the Dickwolves tshirt profoundly uncomfortable, but would that come off completely wrong coming from me?
Hi Longwing! This is a good question, and it challenges a different part of rape culture than the one that PA has brought up via dickery.
Rape and sexual assault don’t just happen to women. The statistic I see referenced most frequently is somewhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 6 women is a rape survivor, but 1 in 33 men is *also* a rape survivor. Sexual assault against men is real, and it’s another harmful part of rape culture’s “definition” of rape that it’s only a woman’s experience.
Also, even if this was a world where men weren’t sexually assaulted, it seems you’re asking if it’s okay for you to be supportive of rape survivors. As a rape survivor, I’m gonna have to say yes, absolutely, please! I welcome support and allies from all communities. If the shirt said, “I’m a dickwolf survivor,” maybe it’d be a different story (…kind of why I didn’t end up going with that idea, actually).
Aaaaaand now I want to make buttons that say “I survived the Dickwolves and all I got was this lousy rape culture.”
You’re completely correct, and it wasn’t my intention to insinuate that men are safe from rape. Sorry about that one, complete fuzzy phrasing and lack of exposition on my part.
As someone who’s never endured sexual assault, I wasn’t 100% on weather it’d be awesome or rude for me to wear one of these shirts. In my own head, I could imagine people who’d be offended by that. I appreciate you taking the time to alleviate that doubt.
I say do it. I, personally, would not be offended by your wearing a shirt like this in solidarity. However, I’m not the official spokesperson for all survivors.
Also, it never hurts to remind people that men can be rape survivors, too. Some people may make that assumption about you if they see you wearing the shirt. Think very carefully about how you’ll feel about that. If it would make you uncomfortable — and there’s no shame in that — you might offer to buy one for a female geek and/or assault survivor you know.
“However, I’m not the official spokesperson for all survivors.”
Yes, good point, and something I realized two seconds after hitting post. I know of at least one rape survivor who actively dislikes the DSG shirt. I am a rape survivor who likes it (obviously), but I can see how it’s a trigger for some by the simple fact of it referring to the original comic. I’m not entirely sure how to negotiate this – “sorry” seems too small, especially since I have no intention of taking down a shirt that feels meaningful personally. :{
Hmm, and then I read further down the thread. At least I know my doubt wasn’t just my own brain making up problems that didn’t exist.
It’s a more complicated question than I initially realized. (A discussion like this, complex? Perish the thought!)
Before I say anything else at all, I think it’s great that you’re taking the opportunity to donate to a worthwhile charity while allowing others to do the same while showing support for their own personal cause. That’s cool.
Also, I want to say before saying much else that you are entitled to your own view of the world and I wouldn’t want anyone to take that from you, so I’m not even really going to try to argue against your cause even though I don’t actually agree with it.
What I will say, however, is that it’s a little weird that you’re using a shirt that turns the idea of surviving rape into something directly connected to a joke about imaginary cartoon “dickwolves” as a way to counter the spread of “rape culture”, which, by your own definition, is essentially the act of diminishing the importance of rape and rape survivors.
Aside from the donations to the nice charity (which, let’s be honest here, is only being done with these shirts as a way to counter Penny-Arcade), your shirt is exactly the same as their shirt in terms of the deeper message it spreads which is that it’s ok to make cartoons that very cutely depict rape and rape survival.
Does that make sense? Seriously, it’s a hard point for me to make because I can barely wrap my head around the original argument as it is, so tell me if I’m not making sense so I can attempt to explain better.
There’s a fundamental thing that I want to make sure is clear (because by your comment I can’t quite tell if it is for you or not): The issue is not that this particular rape joke wasn’t funny/did something bad/is perpetuating rape culture. The issue is that making rape a part of the joke perpetuates rape culture. The actual joke in the original comic strip was about the way questing systems work in WoW and other MMOs. It was not necessary (and I think you will find is never necessary) to add rape to the joke in order to “heighten” the laugh or reaction. This practice, of talking about something and kind of tossing rape in there for whatever reason, is part of rape culture.
Now, that is not why I collaborated with my friend to make this shirt. As I say in my post, the thing that motivated us into action was that if you’re going to make a t-shirt that references that particular comic strip, then the Penny Arcade t-shirt is about the laziest, most uncreative way to do that. And on top of that, they are literally profiting off of rape culture, which makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it for too long (not hyperbole).
There is a difference between a shirt that almost-literally says, “Team Rapist” and a shirt that almost-literally says, “Rape Survivors Guild.” If you cannot understand the semantic difference between the sentiments, “I support rapists!” and “I support rape survivors and their support networks”, then I’m not sure how to respond further.
PS – in case you or anyone else thinks that it is possible to be “ironic” about wearing the Penny Arcade t-shirt, i.e. “Yeah, but I know it’s wrong and so does everyone else and so it’s funny hurr hurrr,” (1) you don’t know that “everyone” knows it’s wrong and (2) “ironic” support of rapists is like “ironic” use of racial slurs and hate speech. It’s impossible to be ironic about rape; it’s like being ironic about murder. It just makes you an asshole who’s supporting rapists and/or laughing at rape survivors.
Well, let’s back up a moment here. I actually won’t be buying and wearing the dickwolves t-shirt specifically because, like you, I believe it’s a somewhat lazy design. Even if I, for some reason, wanted to wear a shirt that said something along the lines of “yay rape!”, this wouldn’t be that shirt because it’s boring. But, to each his own.
I do understand the difference between “team rapists” and “rapists survivors guild”. That–in my mind, at least–has nothing to do with the point. I’m trying to following the point in a narrative where it’s ok to include rape in a cartoon joke.
So, in the Penny-Arcade narrative thus far, there’s a horrible land where slaves are raped to sleep by marauding dickwolves and if we apply the narrative of their t-shirt to this, the dickwolves also play some kind of sport during their downtime not raping people or perhaps at the very least there’s a sports team in this world that believes the dickwolf is fearsome enough to represent them on the field as a mascot. This narrative is offensive because it’s all done in a joking manner.
However, if we apply your t-shirt, which portrays a phoenix rising over the corpse of a dickwolf, to the overall narrative, the story that is added to the original comic is that the slaves who are constantly raped by dickwolves do, at some point, escape their hell and find a better life. The shirt implies that the survivors may have killed the dickwolves to escape, but since it is merely a symbol, it’s unclear if that’s the case, however, in a world modeled after World of Warcraft, it’s fairly likely that any guild created to honor and protect those affected by the evil of the dickwolves would take actions to attempt to eliminate the dickwolves in one way or another, but, again, that part isn’t made quite clear in your narrative yet.
So, the question is, when does a rape joke become ok? Because in the Penny-Arcade narrative, it’s not ok seemingly because the rapists aren’t shown being punished or vanquished or overcome in any way. In your narrative, the only thing that’s added is the possibility that some people survive the rape and may or may not destroy the rapists and that appears to make everything much less offensive.
Yeah, so, walk me through your narrative and tell me the moment at which the rape joke becomes ok. Because your shirt, whether you intended for it to or not, adds another chapter to the story of those poor lost souls trapped in that hellscape that Penny-Arcade originally created in their comic.
Also, in all seriousness, please elaborate on and finish the story because the thing I find most interesting about this whole ordeal is that the original comic has taken on a life of its own and I’m just entranced by the proceedings.
ona-whim, I think focusing on a narrative is rather precisely the problem. This shirt isn’t about a narrative. It’s about the hostility and sexism that women encounter at gaming conventions. It’s designed to point out that Dickwolves are about rape.
Wearing a Dickwolves shirt isn’t about solidarity for PA, Free speech, or supporting the Sixth Slave. Wearing a Dickwolves shirt is about mocking people who don’t think rape is funny.
YOU already get that, but a lot of other people don’t.
This shirt puts it in stark relief. Someone wearing this shirt would make someone wearing a dickwolves shirt profoundly uncomfortable, because it says “Newsflash, you’re wearing a shirt about rape”.
Like you, I’m on the fence about the narrative of the original comic. I drew the line when they decided to start printing shirts. Weirdly, I think PA is missing their own point. They’ve basically turned their joke about MMOs (a narrative joke) into a joke about rape. “Ha ha, isn’t it funny that some people hate dickwolves?”
No. No it isn’t.
Oh, ona-whim.
You like to win by being the most loquacious debater, don’t you? The truth is, and listen closely to this, it’s not really a joke. It is a refutation of the original shirt, and by extension, the comic creators’ refusal to acknowledge the possible, and probable, damage they have done. A quiet, polite, but firm refusal to be bullied into accepting perpetuation of the rape culture, or the passive acceptance that it is unchangeable. Also, just between us, it is f#@king brilliant. Run along, now, darling, we have lines to draw in the sand. There are many like them, but these? They are ours.
Kisses,
K
The difference is that this shirt is not a joke. It’s not intended to be funny. That’s what makes this one okay.
This isn’t about the imaginary world created in one Penny Arcade strip. It’s about the trivialization of rape and rape survivors and rape survivors’ pain.
When is a rape joke okay? Some people would say never. I don’t want to deny others the coping mechanism of gallows humor (which, by definition, is generated by the victim). Rape jokes by survivors sometimes make me cringe, but they tend to center the perspective of the victim rather than the rapist. One rule I’ve heard is to imagine telling the joke to a roomful of rapists and to a roomful of survivors. Which group would be more likely to laugh?
Generally, though, if you’re not sure whether it’s okay, don’t say it. No one is hurt by not making a rape joke.
And to anyone who thinks it’s unfair that only rape survivors get to make rape jokes, I have the same response as I do to white people who think it’s wrong that black people get to use the n-word: Why would you want to?
This is a general reply to the last three comments, so I apologize if my responses here are hard to place.
To start with, Longwing, I would disagree on a few points. For starters, I wouldn’t be so bold as to assume the intent behind the creation of the shirt. I think it’s a safe bet to assume that it’s mocking the situation, but a possible stretch to say that it’s mocking who “don’t think rape is funny” because I don’t believe that Penny-Arcade believes their joke was ever about laughing at the act of rape, so it’s slightly more likely that they’re mocking those who they believe have taken offense to the joke unnecessarily. On that same note, I also wouldn’t try to take away your right to be offended, so I’m not arguing the content of the joke, only what I believe the creators of the joke may have intended. Perhaps you disagree.
To another of your points, I really do not believe most people who where the PA dickwolves shirt would care at all if you stood next to them wearing the survivor’s guild shirt. That’s not to diminish the meaning behind the shirt, of course. I just do not believe most of the people wearing the dickwolves shirt consider themselves rapists and would therefore probably just say something along the lines of, “Haha! It DOES say I’m a rapist! That’s funny.” That is, they’ll something along those lines if they even get that you’re actively opposing their shirt.
Moving on–Krisi! Hi, how are you? I’m fine, thanks. I am actually not making an effort to “win” on the internet. That would be silly. There’s no prize for “winning” on the internet, so “winning” leads to the same result as “losing”. If it makes you feel better, you “win”! Similarly, I do not care at all about lines that are to be drawn upon what I assume is a beach that sits beside an ocean full of bullshit. Draw all the lines you like. Build some sand castles, even. I’ll try not to knock down your creations, but when the tide comes in, make sure you’ve taken pictures of your work, because that stuff won’t stay around for very long. METAPHORS!
Let me get serious once more and address some of what Other Becky has said. It seems that you’re telling me that this survivor’s guild shirt is serious business and no joke. That’s respectable, however, the cute cartoon wolf with the cute cartoon X’s on his eyes and the fact that the shirt follows along with the setting and narrative set forth by the original comic gives me the impression that it is not to be taken too super serious. In fact, I’d probably call the shirt and the charity behind it a noble, but light-hearted jab at insensitivity.
I fully accept that a rape joke is not ok in all situations, however, because the charity shirt follows the narrative of the original comic, it does make me wonder where the point is at which the narrative–not the joke, necessarily–becomes less offensive. Again, the charity shirt was made with a narrative in mind, maybe, but one does exist in it. Looking into that deeper meaning does not diminish the impact of your cause. In fact, the narrative of the shirt could strengthen the cause if you’re willing to run with it. It’s a shame you don’t see that. Take it to the next level.
ona-whim:
I assumed good faith in replying to you. The last four sentences of your reply are deeply insulting. You are essentially telling a group of sexual assault survivors that it’s a shame we’re not smart enough/perceptive enough/deep enough to *really* make use of this opportunity to further our cause. Fuck. That. Noise.
I didn’t assume anything when I replied to you.
If the last four sentences are deeply insulting then I apologize. Let me elaborate. This shirt is not a bad idea. I respect the intentions of the shirt. It would be awesome if it actually made a difference instead of turning into an excuse for trolls on both sides of the argument to yell at each other.
Seriously, I don’t understand why me encouraging you to further your cause is a bad thing. I never called you stupid. The closest to that was “it’s a shame you can’t see that”, which was a little smart-assy, I admit, but I don’t think you’re stupid. At worst, I think you’re being too defensive to debate without assuming I’m trolling you–which is not stupid. It’s a behavior you likely adapted to combat actual trolls going out of their way to be offensive.
ona-whim, what you are doing is generally referred to as, “concern-trolling”. For example, this:
“If the last four sentences are deeply insulting then I apologize. Let me elaborate.”
Translates into:
“If you’re offended, I’m sorry, but not sorry enough to shut up and go educate myself. Now let me repeat the same idea that offended you the first time, just to make it clear that it’s a waste of time to continue trying to engage me in conversation.”
The only person here who’d qualify for trolling right now is you. Multiple commenters have taken the time to try and respond to you and it’s clearly not clicking for you for some reason. Seek resources elsewhere and stop making other people do your homework. I’m glad that you’ve identified that this is a concept you’re unfamiliar with and maybe not understanding. But the reason people keep responding to you in a way other than agreement is because you do not seem to be listening or using your brain to understand what others are saying.
If you are waiting for someone to say, “oh you’re right, I’m such a dumb rape survivor, thanks for pointing out to me that I, someone who was sexually assaulted, don’t know what rape culture is,” it’s not going to be coming from me, and I’d guess it won’t be coming from the people you’re trying to repeat yourself to.
Shakesville has a fantastic post about Rape Cuture. I would encourage you to go read it, and all of the articles linked in that post, before coming back here to continue the discussion. I get that you’re in the weeds and trying to get new information, but you are putting forth opinions and asking questions that – whether you’re aware of it or not – are actually really insulting (at least to me).
I sincerely do appreciate that you’re taking time and energy to trying to understand something that you could easily just dismiss as “not about you”, but this is my personal blog, and no one here is actually getting paid to teach people who are new to the concept of rape culture about rape culture (especially not when there are so many resources available on the Internet that you can access yourself).
There’s not really a back and forth going on here, though. I don’t feel like I’ve been heard out, to be honest. I felt a certain level of politeness at first, but it’s increasingly become something along the lines of “you’re wrong–admit you’re wrong or go away”.
I’ve already said that I’m not here to “win”. So, no, I’m not trying to change minds. I don’t think I ever claimed to be attempting that at all.
However, right now, I do feel like I’m not receiving the same respect. The “educate yourself elsewhere” defense is dismissive and makes no sense coming from those that are so sure their side is right that they would want the world to feel the same way as they do.
So, now, here we are, completely away from my original question and I’ve somehow been forced into the position of defending rape culture. Is that what you really think I’m doing? Defending rape culture? I’ve read all shakesville has to offer, thanks. I read shakesville daily. I’ve donated to shakesville because I never want to see it leave. That’s how much I like shakesville. So, you’re linking me to something I know all about. It has nothing to do with my original question, however.
Whatever. I’m not going to find anything here. Thanks for attempting to be welcoming. Good luck with the shirts.
“so it’s slightly more likely that they’re mocking those who they believe have taken offense to the joke unnecessarily”
Umm… Ona Whim? The people who don’t think rape is funny are the ones who are offended by the comic. That’s the same group of people, it’s completely recursive.
So when you say that you don’t think they’re mocking people who don’t think rape is funny… they’re mocking the people who are offended… It’s… you’re still talking about one group.
So they’re not making fun of survivors, they’re making fun of survivors? I’m a little confused about that one. It’s possible that I’m misunderstanding you, but it looks like you haven’t thought that through.
As for PA’s intent. This goes back to my point about narrative. Ultimately, you’re trying to trace the root cause of an act, but it’s still an act that hurts and offends a huge number of people.
Whatever they intended, the result is sexist. When you punch someone in the nose, you might say “I never intended to break your nose” but you still say it as part of an actual apology, because it’s pretty clear you weren’t supposed to do that.
Sorry. I didn’t explain myself very well. That’s what happens when I try to respond to three different people in one post at work.
The point I was trying to get at when examining their intent is that it seems like there are a lot of people who are upset for the wrong reasons. I’m not saying you’re not justified in being upset. I’m only saying that you make a better case for being upset by being more precise in your accusations. The people who don’t think rape is funny may be the same people getting offended, but mocking you for not thinking rape is funny would be more offensive than mocking you for getting offended. And, in some cases, there are people using the argument that the PA guys are mocking rape victims, which is just way out there extremist language unless someone has proof that they’re sitting in their offices giggling at people being raped.
If I punch someone in the nose, yes, the end result is that they have a broken nose, but why did I punch that person? Assuming I’m punching that person unprovoked, there’s a big difference between me punching them because I had a bad day and they looked at me funny and me punching them simply because they’re a race I don’t like. One is me being a jerk–the other is a hate crime.
Am I justified in punching people in the face randomly? Of course not. However, if you’re trying to call me out for punching people in the face, I’m going to laugh at you if you call me racist if the reason behind me punching someone in the face was less devious and more impulsive.
On the topic of narrative, I actually came into this conversation with the intent to NOT trace the narrative backwards because there’s no point. We’re long past the point where anyone is going to successfully explain the original comic without everything turning into more yelling and banning. The very idea that I might have even thought about trying to defend the original comic has already earned me a negative reaction here. My intent was to trace the narrative FORWARD–starting with this survivors guild shirt.
“The point I was trying to get at when examining their intent is that it seems like there are a lot of people who are upset for the wrong reasons.”
Trying to dictate to rape survivors what reasons are or are not appropriate for them to have for being upset is oppressive. I told you once already that you’re concern-trolling, a term that you must be very familiar with if you read Shakesville.
“The people who don’t think rape is funny may be the same people getting offended, but mocking you for not thinking rape is funny would be more offensive than mocking you for getting offended.”
People are offended by rape jokes *because* they don’t think rape is funny. If it’s your opinion that rape is funny, then you’re the proud owner of a sexist opinion.
“And, in some cases, there are people using the argument that the PA guys are mocking rape victims, which is just way out there extremist language unless someone has proof that they’re sitting in their offices giggling at people being raped.”
The responses and behavior of the PA creators have consistently been derogatory and mocking toward rape survivors and people with PTSD. Again, if you’re reading Shakesville, none of this is new information, and you can go read their many posts covering this very issue. I’m starting to suspect they voted your comments down and eventually banned you for concern-trolling over there, and so now you’re trying to take your game over here in the hopes I won’t do the same thing. You hope in vain.
“If I punch someone in the nose, yes, the end result is that they have a broken nose, but why did I punch that person?”
As Longwing already pointed out when using this example in the first place, it’s not about your intent, it’s about the consequences of your actions. If your intent isn’t to cause harm, and you break someone’s nose, you done fucked up, and you say you’re sorry. If your intent is to cause pain, and you break someone’s nose, I guess you feel good about it. Either way *someone’s nose is broken*. To carry this over to here — whether the PA guys originally intended to use oppressive language and provide a PTSD trigger in their comic is not the issue. The issue is that it happened and it had consequences. The issue is about the *people affected* not about authorial intent.
This is your last warning on the concern-trolling; if you keep doing it, I’m going to start deleting your comments. Again, if you’re the fan of Shakesville you say you are, none of this should be surprising or unfamiliar to you.
I actually wasn’t going to post again after my last reply to you, but Longwing restored my faith in the possibility of friendly non-dismissive dialog and debate. You have very quickly swooped in to wreck said faith, so it’s once again obvious that I’m not going to be able to chat here.
Thanks to Longwing for continuing to sound reasonable. Sorry we can’t discuss this further. It was fun.
“It was fun.”
No, it really wasn’t. But thanks for telling one of the male participants in the discussion that he was being reasonable, thus implying that the rest of us femalez were being unreasonable. (Overemotional? Hysterical, maybe?)
You have been insulting, ignorant, and intellectually lazy. Only the second is ever excusable, and only until the first time someone tells you to go educate yourself before you try to participate in the discussion. It is NOT OUR JOB to educate you. That shit is exhausting.
I think I have concern troll bingo, though.
Ona-Whim, the points I’ve been making are *weaker* than the ones being made by regular posters here.
I’ve tried to be sympathetic and level headed. I do believe it helps to get the point across. However, every answer given to your questions is answered with “Yes but”, and a repetition of your prior point. You are, by definition, concern trolling.
Q: Shouldn’t we look at what they meant?
A: It doesn’t matter what they were trying to do, they caused real damage here.
Q: Yes but, shouldn’t we look at what they meant?
Kirbybits put it best:
“If your intent isn’t to cause harm, and you break someone’s nose, you done fucked up, and you say you’re sorry. If your intent is to cause pain, and you break someone’s nose, I guess you feel good about it. Either way *someone’s nose is broken*.”
This isn’t about what PA intended, it’s about the consequences of their actions. Please stop asking the people who have been wronged to sympathize with their tormentors or modify their behavior. It’s rude.
Great post.
This is awesome – I hope these shirts are a wall of gold at PAX!
great post.
that is all.
Hello! What a nice post to see as I stumbled on to your blog for the first time. (Here from Shakesville).
I love this idea, and I love the idea of actually doing something worthwhile with the money. Keep it up! I’d really like to see people wearing *these* shirts at PAX.
Nenaloca- just because lots of people use the word gay or rape in a perjurative sense, it does not make it acceptable or okay to do so. As my father used to tell me when I used the excuse that all my friends did something, “Eat shit, sixty million flies do.”
They were no way perpetuating or supporting rape. In the original comic, I think it was pretty clear “dickwolves” were bad guys. They apologized and try to make light of it because it was a small thing to begin with.
The thing that bothers me about the backlash is how hypocritical the over-reaction to it was. This is a comic about geek culture, and “rape” is just one of those words that is used a lot (for instance, in reference to a really bad defeat in a game) the same way people use “gay” as a negative connotation in common usage. My best friend is gay, and he even uses it.
The gaming/internet geek culture world is unfortunately full of use of words like rape, n***, f*g, whore, etc. or making jokes about AIDS, cancer, SARS, and other such things. I’m confident that most of people crying bloody murder over the rape slight in the comic more than likely use some other offensive language in their common vocab that could be hurtful to someone. That’s life, isn’t it?
There’s a blurry line between what’s acceptable when it comes to slang and literal meanings for words in different cultures like this. Sometimes things get lost in translation when one community overhears the “jargon” of another. Some people are just super-sensitive.
The t-shirt bit definitely crosses the line. Even as an act of rebellion, I think that it’s tactless. People continued to hound them for it, so they bit back. Do I agree with that? No.
But I still think it was an over-reaction.
You bring up a lot of things, so this is going to be a multi-part response:
“They were no way perpetuating or supporting rape.”
Agreed – what I’m saying is that they were perpetuating rape culture. Rape culture is, broadly, the normalization and diminishment of rape. Essentially, it’s presenting rape as something that’s “no big deal”, which in turn has real-world impact and consequences when that attitude is wide-spread.
“…“rape” is just one of those words that is used a lot (for instance, in reference to a really bad defeat in a game) the same way people use “gay” as a negative connotation in common usage. My best friend is gay, and he even uses it.”
I think you are overlooking the difference between something being common practice and something being a positive practice. If you look back on history, people used to do a lot of things commonly that we’ve since culturally determined to be awful. Also, to address your second point about using “gay” as a derogatory term — that practice is, in fact, derogatory. To cut off the argument, “but gay used to mean something different before it meant ‘homosexual’ so now it can mean “sucky” if I want it to!”: gay used to be a synonym for “happy”, aka it was a word with no derogatory connotation. Now, it is a term used to refer to homosexuality, and it is still a term with no derogatory connotation. Calling something “gay” as an insult to that something adds a negative connotation to the term, and that in turn makes it derogatory and insulting to gay people. As long as the two meanings co-exist, using “gay” as an insult is using derogatory language toward gay people. It would be similar to calling things you think are stupid, “really black” or “totally Jewish” or something. Also, your gay friend is not the Official International Ambassador of Gaydom, and having one gay person tell you they do not individually feel insulted or oppressed by derogatory speech does not mean that (A) all gay people feel that way or (B) the speech itself is not derogatory.
“The gaming/internet geek culture world is unfortunately full of use of words like rape, n***, f*g, whore, etc. or making jokes about AIDS, cancer, SARS, and other such things.”
Again, I refer back to the difference between something being common behavior and something being respectful, positive behavior. When babies are born, they universally can’t read, and yet people spend a lot of time fighting the common fact of baby illiteracy. Sometimes, these people are successful and they end up with a literate child. Or: accepting this behavior that you (accurately) describe as “unfortunate” in game/geek/internet/(hint: mainstream) culture as unchangeable means there is a 100% chance it will not change.
“I’m confident that most of people crying bloody murder over the rape slight in the comic more than likely use some other offensive language in their common vocab that could be hurtful to someone.”
Absolutely! That’s why I tried to emphasize at the top of my post that pretty much everyone has some blinders on, and that they will probably accidentally stumble on new information and viewpoints that challenge their world-view. Over the weekend, someone had to point out to me that in a discussion of online identity, I was overlooking the populations on the internet that don’t identify as humans (eg: furries, rays of light, etc) when I kept saying, “people”. The person who told me about it was patient enough to give me some basic vocabulary and point me in the right direction on where to read more, and it’s been fascinating stuff to learn about.
Another useful distinction on stuff like this is to try and separate the Offensive – which I usually define as disagreements about external things (eg: you hate my cooking; I am offended) and Oppressive – which I usually define as disagreements about someone’s identity (eg: you tell me I am incapable of cooking a good meal because I’m a woman/queer/whatever). I am not offended by rape culture — rape culture is oppressive. I am not offended by sexism, homophobia, racism, ableism, etc — these things are oppressive. They are destructive to everyone in a given culture, not just the minorities experiencing oppression, and it is entirely possible (and very common) for people who experience oppression in one area to carry privilege in other areas. And not only carry privilege, but to refuse to acknowledge that privilege and continue to participate in oppression.
“Sometimes things get lost in translation when one community overhears the “jargon” of another. Some people are just super-sensitive.”
This is very true – things like performative blackface carry very different meanings when done in America than in New Zealand, for example. However, when the jargon of one community is derogatory to another community, and both communities are on the Internet, my suggestion is that everyone had damn well better get super-sensitive, but to the feelings of others. I can promise you the personal cost of giving a shit about the people on the other side of the screen is much, much smaller than the indignity, anger, and outrage a lot of people expend trying to defend their “right” to ignore everyone who doesn’t fit nicely into their worldview. And yes, people do tend to get sensitive when you try to ignore, diminish, insult, dismiss, or mock their lives, identities, and experiences. Because you see, they are still people.
Awesome response. I think I am going to make a T shirt with it now. Really though, thank you.
This is a brilliant breakdown of the core issues. I wish I had your skill at exposition and debate. Coming up with legitimately patient and rational replies to contentious issues is a skill I’ve yet to master.
great response. I mostly already shared the opinions you express here, but you’ve definitely clarified them and made them concrete. Thank You.
“Agreed – what I’m saying is that they were perpetuating rape culture. Rape culture is, broadly, the normalization and diminishment of rape. Essentially, it’s presenting rape as something that’s “no big deal”, which in turn has real-world impact and consequences when that attitude is wide-spread.”
Completely agree with the remainder of your post here, but can you please clarify this?
My take on the comic is that it is unambiguously stating that rape *is* an extremely big deal. The joke is not that haha someone got raped or otherwise blaming the victim or making rape sound sexy – it’s that within the framework of the game you’re expected (forced, even) to callously leave someone to such a terrible fate and noone really blinks, whereas in reality that would be a horrible thing to do…
What about this endorses or trivializes rape? Just mentioning it in the context of a joke, or something more?
“What about this endorses or trivializes rape? Just mentioning it in the context of a joke-”
Yes.
For more information on rape culture, Shakesville’s Rape Culture 101 is a fantastic resource.
Thanks for the reply… I assume you meant to link this (if the link hasn’t already been fixed):
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html
I have actually read that before, and I still don’t see how this comic contributes to rape culture… I don’t believe this is a ‘rape joke’ per se… the mention of rape is just there as an example of some horrible thing (could have easily been substituted by ‘slashed to sleep by razorwolves’, or whatever).
I mean I can certainly see how ‘rape jokes’ contribute to rape culture:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2006/02/and-people-ask-why-im-feminist.html
Holy shit… but I just don’t see it in that comic.
Yes, I did mean that link, copy/paste is clearly sometimes beyond me (sorry about that)!
You are not the first person to say, “but they’re using rape as an example of a bad experience, and so it’s not a rape joke.” I think we may end up having different ideas of what Penny Arcade is, what jokes are, or what qualifies as a rape joke.
I understand Penny Arcade to be a web comic that tells jokes about the game industry and game culture (hence the title, referencing, uh, penny arcades). I know web comics can be a lot of things, but Penny Arcade isn’t using web comics to tell meditative or painful stories like A Softer World (for an example) – unless PA is doing a side story (like the Cardboard Tube Samurai stories), they’re using the three-panel comic format to set up and pay off jokes.
Some people have said, “oh but it’s an offensive humor site, like Something Awful, so you shouldn’t visit it or expect it to be non-offensive.” I’ve never put PA and SA on the same level (for one thing, SA’s got its content right in its title, so my expectations as a viewer are pretty accurately set). My expectations of PA are that it’s a comic and community for gamers about games and the game industry — *especially* ever since the PA guys undertook the self-appointed task of trying to improve the public perception of gamers (creating Child’s Play as a way to combat the idea that all gamers are violent and uncharitable and to use their fanbase to do some really great charity work) and trying to strengthen and broaden the gamer community (creating PAX and PAX East, game conventions that purport to be a place for “all” gamers). It’s not by any definition a “niche” site in the game community, they have a huge audience, they raise a lot of money for charity using that audience, and they sell out conventions to the tune of over 100,000 attendees between PAX and PAX East this year (and that number will get higher next year, when PAX East is relocated to a bigger venue). PA is part of the game community. I am part of the game community. I do not have, and refuse to accept, the expectation that an organization that claims to be for all gamers exists to oppress me, silence me, or discriminate against me.
Given that understanding (PA is a site that primarily tells jokes; PA and their properties are common/familiar for a lot of gamers), the words used in any given PA strip are interpreted by me as being jokes. Since the intent of the comic is to tell jokes, and since I have often laughed or felt an expectation of laughter (ie: I know it’s a joke I just don’t think it’s a good one so I don’t laugh) at their comic strip in the past, when I read their content, I understand that what I am reading is intended for humor. I didn’t pause when I read panel two of the original comic strip that kicked all this off and think, “oh, what a great commentary on the tragedy of rape and its severity and impact on culture and survivors.” I don’t think that was the intent and I don’t think that’s how it was received – I think people laughed. Because it’s a joke. It’s a “oh that is wrong! tee hee!” joke, it’s a “oh you, you’re *terrible*, ha ha ha!” joke, but it’s still a joke. “Off-color” would be an appropriate description, but it’s an off-color *joke*.
So, we have a humorous website that plays a highly-visible role in the game community referencing rape as a punchline. Even if the punchline isn’t, “ladies…they got it coming to them, am I right?”, it’s using the concept of rape as a way to provoke laughter. Again, using my train of thought…that’s a rape joke.
To me, it’s a lot more cut and dry than it seems to be for you — if it’s a joke, and it’s referencing rape in some way, it’s a rape joke. Because you’re asking the audience to laugh at rape. If there’s more nuance to it than that, I’m going to need to see some examples of what you mean by jokes that feature rape but somehow aren’t…jokes that feature rape, aka rape jokes.
Well, I would suggest that your own shirt, which features a dead rapist on it, might be considered humorous or light-hearted to some degree (cartoony, fantastical, making fun of the other shirt), as I believe others have pointed out.
Other than that, I’m not really an encyclopedia of rape jokes, so nothing comes to mind. I just feel there’s a meaningful distinction between something that mentions rape and treats it as the horrible thing it is, vs something that actually trivializes rape or mocks the victims of rape. Compare to any of the rape jokes on the rape culture 101 post, most of which are jaw-droppingly awful and clearly trivialize or even actively promote rape.
I’m certainly not saying this comic is not offensive/oppressive at all… I just feel like it’s a 1 that’s getting treated like a 10. I guess that’s because it’s a large mouthpiece for gaming culture, as you say.
But why even bother to defend the 1s? How much effort are they worth? What message are you sending when you do it?
“What message are you sending when you do it?”
That rape is horrific and that it’s inclusion in jokes such as PA’s actually helps keep it shocking and wrong, which is the message anyone should be sending. By trivializing people’s right to expression, we are opening up the floodgates for any group to lobby and enforce a ban on jokes that they could claim to be offended by (Muslims, Atheists, Christians, scientists, hill-billies, African-Americans, Whites, Democrats, Republicans etc.). Some of the religious groups have historically used violence and murder to stop any kind of expression they would declare off-limits, using the exact same justifications I see in this larger debate on PA. Any group can at any one time claim offense at anything using these slippery-slope arguments and that’s why I disagree on the reception of the initial joke. If rape was no longer a horrific act, it’s inclusion in the comic would not make sense. Their behavior after the debacle is another thing altogether though, I agree the T-shirt was inappropriate.
I am glad we agree that the T-Shirt is inappropriate. These debates can become extremely polarized, and I think it’s important to remember that common ground exists.
However, I feel I must point out a logical fallacy in your argument. Slippery slope arguments are always invalid regardless of who uses them. You see the argument about PA’s rape humor as a slippery slope: Rape Joke -> Rape.
To illustrate why this is a dangerous tack to take, you then point out a variety of groups who could start banning humor if we go down this path.
That, by definition, is a slippery slope argument. You’re pointing out where this could lead, rather than discussing where it is right now.
A given debate must be considered on its own merits, not on the merits of a hypothetical (and honestly hyperbolic) version of the debate that might occur in the future.
Whether you agree or disagree about PA’s behavior, please do not base your opinion on a concern of other later groups “using” this debate to their own advantage. The position of those wronged by PA is right or wrong all on its own.
As for the initial question of slippery slope? Many people in this debate have stated, repeatedly, that it’s not a question of rape jokes leading to assault.
There seems to be a common thread of responses from people who feel that since PA isn’t aggrandizing or recommending rape, their humor is acceptable. The reasons why it’s still wrong have been discussed at great length, and the position that humor=assaults has been repeatedly disproved.
Thus, arguing against the “slippery slope” of rape leading to assaults is arguing against a non-existent opponent. In debating, this is called a “straw man” argument. You’re arguing against an easily disproved position that your opponent doesn’t hold.
It is essential to discuss dissenting positions, but please, if you have an objection, I ask you to object to what your opponent is actually saying, and not to what you believe they might be implying.
Wow…perpetrating rape culture? Say someone had NEVER read the comic. How about perpetrating dick wolf culture? I mean the concept of such a creature will make the juvenile portion lurking in every male’s brain grin a little. Sorry but it’s just a shirt with a fantastical creature on it. It does not say Dick Wolf Rapists. There is no implication of rape. Granted in the comic strip sure but the shirt is simply DICK WOLVES. I hate rape and have zero tolerance for it, the t shirt itself simply has a WOLF with no depictions of any dicks and you are making a big deal out of a t shirt and soaking up the attention. You are not furthering your cause any more than when a religious fanatic violently attacks someone who refuses to convert, congratulations.
“Agreed – what I’m saying is that they were perpetuating rape culture. Rape culture is, broadly, the normalization and diminishment of rape. Essentially, it’s presenting rape as something that’s “no big deal”, which in turn has real-world impact and consequences when that attitude is wide-spread.”
Except they didn’t. Rape – in every panel they’ve used it – is presented as the worst thing that can happen to a person. In a culture that freely accepts – even enjoys – all manner of death and dismemberment, that should be worth noting.
You’re an idiot; you’re an attention-seeking ninny trying their level best to generate the biggest little storm in a teacup they can.
Tell me: would you have the news stop reporting rapes because overexposure will trivialise it, or make it seem somehow OK? Will you complain your little heart out every time a rape survivors group hangs out a banner without preceding it with a “trigger warning”?
I am not going to downplay how horrific rape is, or the pain that victims go through. But running around like your hair’s on fire every time the word is used does far more damage to the perception of rape and rape victims than any comic ever could.
Bravo – you’ve successfully managed to become exactly what you’re decrying. But being the armchair hypocrite you are I’m sure you have some justification for it. Grab yourself another latte and tell yourself that you’re a somehow worthwhile person with something relevant to contribute to the conversation. The rest of us will be over here, waiting for you to grow up.
Great article and thank you so much for the shirt! My friend Nomad also wrote an article about the original Dickwolves controversy over at Pretty Gamer (http://bit.ly/bck9RR); many of us are PAXers who drew the proverbial line.
And THANK YOU for the realistic sizing options and color choices – the chocolate is super wearable.